1 Thursday, 24 February 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Bonomy being absent --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Judge Bonomy being absent, we sit pursuant to the
9 provisions of Rule 15 bis. Mr. Milosevic, to complete your
10 examination-in-chief. And remember, we're working for the end of the
11 first session for the completion, concentrating on the substance of the
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Mr. Robinson, that I am
14 always focused on the substance, and I will try to finish before the end
15 of the first session.
16 WITNESS: VUKASIN ANDRIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]
19 Q. Good morning, Dr. Andric.
20 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
21 Q. Yesterday, towards the end of the last session, we covered events
22 in Bistrazin, Djakovica, events involving the column that had been bombed,
23 and we discussed certain issues involving the victims.
24 In addition to that column you spoke about yesterday, the column
25 of refugees on the road between Djakovica and Prizren and later in the
1 Djakovica hospital, so in addition to that column, the bombs also hit
2 another column of Albanian refugees that was on its way back to its homes
3 in the village, a column that had stopped to rest. Do you know about
5 A. Yes, I know about this case. It happened in the night of the 13th
6 of May, 1999, on the road between Prizren and Suva Reka, five kilometres
7 away from Prizren, in a place called Korisa. About 600 internally
8 displaced Albanians had stopped to rest. They were hit by thermovisual
9 bombs that develop an extremely high temperature. Eighty people died on
10 the spot, including 30 children, including some infants.
11 Q. Let us see a videotape depicting the bombing of the refugees in
12 Korisa village, 14 May 1999.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Dr. Andric, this was a column that had stopped for a while.
16 Just a minute. On the screen we see members of the staff. This
17 is part of the next video clip. Will you please wait with this video
18 clip. We will play it later.
19 Here where you see the people who were hit with these bombs, we
20 see scattered bodies and destroyed tractors, that was a column of Albanian
21 refugees that had stopped for a while to rest, as you said. There were no
22 buses there. There were no cars. It was perfectly obvious that there
23 were only tractors, vehicles used solely by villagers.
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. NICE: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honour, with
1 this evidence. First of all, the defendant -- the accused is leading
2 material. Secondly, where is it relevant in any event? That's a matter
3 we've canvassed before. Third, has the accused stopped to consider that
4 the evidence that's already been put in by the Prosecution about this
5 material is adequate and sufficient? Because none of this is probably in
6 dispute so far as the Prosecution is concerned who have led evidence about
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, but, Mr. Nice, it may very well be relevant.
9 I'm about to ask the witness what he can tell us about the refugees. Why
10 were they fleeing? Where were they fleeing from? That's very relevant to
11 the indictment, because your allegations are that refugees fled because of
12 crimes committed by the Serbs. The accused's case is that there was
13 another reason for the refugees fleeing. So that is the -- that's how
14 this matter becomes relevant, in my view, and those are the questions that
15 Mr. Milosevic should now be putting to the witness, if he has the
17 Professor, can you tell us anything more about these -- this
18 column of 600 refugees? Do you know where they were coming from and in
19 what circumstances they left their homes, whether they left -- what caused
20 them to leave?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a column from the region of
22 Suva Reka, for the most part, and they had set out after the NATO
23 aggression began. They left their homes on the way to Albania. However,
24 halfway there, they decided to turn back. From Prizren, returning to Suva
25 Reka, they stopped in Korisa village where they decided to stay the night,
1 and the next day they were supposed to continue their way back
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you mean when you say they left after the
4 NATO aggression began? That needs clarification. It's an issue in the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the beginning of the NATO
7 aggression, the population of Kosovo and Metohija, regardless of
8 ethnicity, started leaving Kosovo en masse. That means Albanians, Serbs,
9 everybody who was living there started to leave, started to flee. That
10 was why people sought refuge elsewhere where they would be able to live
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do you have any specific information about this
13 particular column, as to why they left, or is this just a generalisation
14 on your part?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Apart from what I said, I have no
16 additional information, at least in relation to this column.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. In view of the question raised by Judge Robinson and in view of
20 what you said about the fact that they had stopped to rest, then it must
21 have been known for several hours, at least, that it was a column that was
22 returning to its village. Their destination, their intention must have
23 been known.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you can't put a question in that
25 way, that's leading, that it must have been known that they were returning
1 to their village. That's a leading question, and that is what Mr. Nice
2 complains of all the time.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not suggest to him in the form
4 of a leading question that they were going back to their own village. He
5 said himself that they had stopped to rest, so he knew they were returning
6 back home. I'm just asking him if there were any comments made as to NATO
7 choosing to bomb precisely columns of refugees returning to their homes.
8 Yesterday, we called -- we talked about columns from Bistrazin and
9 Djakovica, and this one is from Suva Reka.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So from the time that you remember in relation to this event, were
12 there any comments heard made about columns returning homes -- returning
13 home being bombed?
14 A. Yes, because this was not the only one. Several columns had been
15 bombed. The territory of Kosovo and Metohija was to be completely emptied
16 of Albanians. However, since there were many internally displaced
17 Albanians who were returning home, that did not fit with the scenario. We
18 had already managed to convince several thousands to stay put and remain
19 at home or return home, and that was the official policy of the state
20 authorities of Serbia.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andric. Please look at tab 5.11. You will find
22 there several photographs that are also available on CD. Maybe we can see
23 them on the monitors, on the computer if the AV booth is ready. If not,
24 then I will ask for at least a couple of these photographs to be put on
25 the ELMO.
1 A. These are photographs of the scenes that we saw in the video clip.
2 MR. KAY: 5.10 to be an exhibit, please.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This is 5.11 now. I'm looking at these photos. You said that the
6 bombs used were a kind of bombs that develop a high temperature.
7 A. Yes, so-called thermovision bombs.
8 Q. Take one of these photos and tell us what this is all about, the
9 fifth or the sixth photograph.
10 A. We see charred bodies.
11 Q. Just put a couple of photos on the ELMO. That will suffice.
12 A. On the tractor-trailer, again we see charged bodies.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document under 5.11 be also
15 tendered into evidence?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. A moment ago, Mr. Andric, Mr. Robinson replied to an observation
19 made by Mr. Nice and said or, rather, asked were people fleeing from the
20 bombs or were they fleeing before our policemen and army. But before I
21 ask my question, I will read to you only a couple of quotations from this
22 Kosovo indictment. I hope I don't need to provide you with a copy,
23 because my quoting will be very brief.
24 But just before I do that, one question. You lived in Pristina at
25 the time; is that correct? And you just mentioned Prizren, Djakovica So
1 you had moved around that territory, including Prizren and Djakovica, and
2 you probably visited some other places that I don't have time to mention.
3 I will read to you from paragraph 63. It is a rather long
4 paragraph in the indictment, but for instance, 63(B) says -- it refers to
5 Prizren, and I will later ask you if you know anything about this and if
6 there is any truth in this.
7 In the B/C/S version, it's page 17. 63(b) Prizren: "On 25 March
8 1999 the village of Pirane was surrounded by forces of the Federal
9 Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbia, tanks and various military vehicles.
10 The village was shelled and a number of the residents were killed."
11 THE INTERPRETER: May the accused be asked to read more slowly.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the interpreters are asking you to
13 read more slowly.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will, and I will also skip certain
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. "Thereafter, forces of the FRY and Serbia entered the village and
18 burned the houses of Kosovo Albanians. ... Some of the Kosovo Albanians
19 fleeing towards Srbica were killed or wounded by snipers. Forces of the
20 FRY and Serbia then launched an offensive in the area of Srbica and
21 shelled the villages of Donji Retimlje, Retimle, and Randubrava. Kosovo
22 Albanian villagers were forced from their homes and sent to the Albanian
24 Now, pay attention to this date. It says: "From 28 March 1999,
25 in the city of Prizren, forces of the FRY and Serbia went from house to
1 house, ordering Kosovo Albanian residents to leave. They were forced to
2 join convoys of vehicles and persons travelling on foot to the Albanian
3 border. En route, members of the forces of the FRY and Serbia beat and
4 killed Kosovo Albanian men, separated Kosovo Albanian women from the
5 convoy and sexually assaulted the women. At the border, all personal
6 documents were taken away by forces of the FRY and Serbia."
7 Now, I have read out this paragraph to you. Tell me what you know
8 about it. You have been to Prizren. You have been to Djakovica. You
9 were there at the relevant time. Tell us, what do you know about all
11 A. In this period from the 1st of April, 1999, up until the 15th of
12 April, I was very often visiting that area. With my teams, I followed,
13 escorted precisely those columns leaving towards Albania, towards
14 Vrbnica. I claim with full responsibility that not in a single day did I
15 see any members of either the Ministry of Interior or the army of
16 Yugoslavia who made the slightest move towards making an illicit, unlawful
17 act. On the contrary, the MUP and the army were trying to help us and the
19 As for sexual assaults, I believe I need not waste my breath even
20 to comment upon this.
21 As for attacks on columns, I spent four or five days near the
22 border. I didn't see it with my own eyes, but I heard about such cases.
23 I believe that it indeed happened that personal documents were taken away.
24 I don't think it was done following some orders. It was done as a
25 precaution maybe, because these documents could have been abused. There
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 is a central computer at the level of the state of Serbia where all the
2 citizens of Serbia are registered. So any citizen of Serbia, even if they
3 lost their IDs, could get new IDs. The fact that somebody lost an ID
4 doesn't mean that one is erased from the records as a citizen.
5 Q. Yes, but it says here they were driven out of their homes and sent
6 to the Albanian border. Did anybody drive Albanians out of their homes
7 and send them to the border?
8 A. I spoke to the people in the columns. There were women, children,
9 and elderly people. I spoke to many of them. Nobody told me any such
10 thing. Everybody told me, on the contrary, that they were running away
11 from NATO bombs and they were looking to find a peaceful area where they
12 would be safe from the bombing.
13 Q. I have to skip a few things, although I'm sorry, but I have some
14 more quotations. Let us look at paragraph 63(G). It says: "Pristina."
15 Starting with 24th March, 1999, and continuing through the end of May
16 1999, did you live in Pristina at the time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So you were there all the time except you were making tours of
19 other places. So it goes on to say: "... Serbian police went to the
20 homes of Kosovo Albanians in the city of Pristina and forced the residents
21 to leave. During the course of these forced expulsions, a number of
22 people were killed. Many of those forced from their homes went directly
23 to the train station, while others sought shelter in nearby
24 neighbourhoods. Hundreds of ethnic Albanians, guided by Serb police at
25 all the intersections, gathered at the train station and then were loaded
1 onto overcrowded trains or buses after a long wait during which time," et
2 cetera, et cetera. "Those on the trains went as far as Djeneral Jankovic,
3 a village near the Macedonian border. During the train ride, many people
4 had their identification papers taken from them. After getting off the
5 trains, forces of the FRY and Serbia told the Kosovo Albanians to walk
6 along the tracks into Macedonia since the surrounding land had been mined.
7 Those who tried to hide in Pristina were eventually expelled in a similar
8 fashion. During the course of these forced expulsions, a number of these
9 -- a number of these people were killed and several women were sexually
11 And again in (G) we find that Serb forces entered villages around
12 Pristina, looted their property, robbed them of their money, et cetera.
13 What do you know about this, Dr. Andric?
14 A. During this time I was in Pristina. From time to time I was out
15 in the field, but I would spend several hours a day in Pristina. I know
16 about all this only from television, and I assert with full responsibility
17 that it was not the Serbian police that did this. I do not dispute that
18 there were individual instances of this.
19 Q. What do you mean by "this"?
20 A. Well, people forcing someone to leave their home. But these were
21 not policemen. These were criminals. It was wartime, and these criminals
22 perhaps thought they were helping their country and their people by this.
23 This is absolutely untrue. However, all of these have been tried and some
24 have even been convicted.
25 The police never did this. The police protected those people.
1 It's true that they directed them in the direction they wanted to go.
2 They tried to persuade them to return, but they couldn't prevent them from
3 leaving the territory of Kosovo and Metohija if they were intent on
4 fleeing and searching for safety for their families and shelter from the
5 NATO aggression.
6 Q. Look at Djakovica. You were in Djakovica. Under (h): "Those who
7 were walking on foot were directed to several border crossings, and those
8 who were on vehicles were directed towards the town of Prizren."
9 And then it says: "Starting on the 24th of March or thereabouts
10 until the 11th of May, the forces of the FRY and Serbia started forcing
11 the inhabitants of the town of Djakovica to leave."
12 Do you have any information about the forces of FRY and Serbia
13 forcing an Albanian to leave his home?
14 A. I don't have a single piece of information about this. I was out
15 on the ground for several days. I accompanied the convoy leaving Kosovo
16 and Metohija. It consisted mostly of farmers from that area. We gave
17 them assistance in every possible way, and not from a single Albanian did
18 I hear anything like this. I have no reason not to believe them.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is in Djakovica, March 1999. Where were you
20 at that time, at the time of these alleged incidents, 24th of March
21 through 11th May? I'm trying to find out how you're able to speak as
22 authoritatively about these matters as you have.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, from the 24th onwards,
24 I was on the ground. I wasn't on the ground when these columns started
25 forming. They started forming around the 1st of April. From the 1st of
1 April until the 6th of April, every single day I was out in the area of
2 Djeneral Jankovic and Vrbnica. These people from Djakovica could not
3 reach the Vrbnica border crossing right away. I didn't see these people
4 in Djakovica, but I did see people from all over Metohija who had arrived
5 at the border, the border crossing towards Albania. This is the Vrbnica
6 border crossing. There I spoke to them, I gave them assistance, I gave
7 them medical assistance with my teams. We gave them what food we had, we
8 brought diapers for the babies and anything else we were able to offer
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: You told us earlier that the alleged acts in
11 paragraph (G) were committed not by Serb police but by criminals, and I
12 think you told us that you -- you were in Pristina at that time, the 24th
13 of March, 1999.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was in Pristina on the 24th
15 of March, 1999.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the distance between Pristina and
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The distance between Pristina and
19 Djakovica via Prizren is 111 kilometres. There is another road which is
20 80 kilometres long, about 80 kilometres. It goes via Klina.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Because the time period in relation to both
22 Prizren and Djakovica is relatively the same, so it's not clear to me how
23 you had information about these matters.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Robinson, I was on
25 the ground. I spoke to large numbers of people, and I got this
1 information from people who told me about it. I was also a member of the
2 provincial council, and I know that this was not the policy we advocated.
3 It was not possible. Individuals might have done such things, but not
4 under orders from their superior command, because our policy was quite
5 different. From the very first day, our policy was to escort these
6 people, to get them to come back, as far as we were able to, and if not,
7 to give them assistance.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Andric, let us clarify. As Mr. Robinson is not clear about
10 where you were, whether you were in Pristina, Djakovica, Prizren, Djeneral
11 Jankovic, and so on and so forth, when we say "on the ground," this means
12 travelling in our part of the world.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, when Mr. Andric says
14 he was on the ground, this means he was travelling. He lived in
15 Pristina --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, that's for Mr. Andric to explain. You may
17 not believe it, but the questions I asked and the answers, I believe,
18 strengthened your case. Proceed quickly. We are still working towards
19 the first break.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I only wish to say when somebody is
21 going on an official trip, a business trip, they often say, "I'm going out
22 on the ground." This is not usual in other languages.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Were you in Pristina, in Djakovica, in Prizren and Djeneral
25 Jankovic and other places?
1 A. Yes, on a daily basis for the most part.
2 Q. Throughout this period?
3 A. Until the end of the war.
4 Q. Very well. Let us look at the next count or, rather, paragraph
5 (h)(ii). "In the place -- villages Meja, Korenica, a large number, not
6 yet established, of civilians were separated off and executed."
7 Is this the village of Meja where the NATO bombs hit?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you aware of these events in Meja?
10 A. No. This is the first time I've heard of this.
11 Q. No. I'm asking you do you know what happened at the time.
12 A. Yes. On the 14th of April, yes. I was on the spot.
13 Q. Is it possible in any way from the information you have to claim
14 that these people were killed by soldiers or policemen of the FRY or of
16 A. No.
17 Q. How were these people killed?
18 A. These people were killed in a series of attacks by the NATO
19 aviation on the convoy that was moving along the road. It lasted for
20 almost two hours. It was not a single attack, it was several attacks on a
21 large territory covering 30 or more kilometres, not just a kilometre or
23 Q. Very well. Let's speed up. Were all the people who left their
24 homes leaving the country or were some internally displaced temporarily?
25 A. No, not everyone who left their homes left the province. A large
1 number of these people were internally displaced temporarily on the
2 territory of Kosovo and Metohija.
3 Q. In view of your tasks, and we have seen those documents in the
4 staff, throughout the NATO aggression did you deal with these people?
5 A. From the 1st of April when we started with our mobile medical
6 teams, escorting and assisting the columns that turned up and then later
7 assisting internally displaced persons, up until the end of the war this
8 was the only thing we did every day. We dealt with temporarily displaced
9 persons and looked after them in every way; providing food, medical
10 assistance, security, and so on.
11 Q. In a nutshell, you were assisting them.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were you doing this on a daily basis or sporadically?
14 A. On a daily basis, with several teams, all over the territory of
15 Kosovo and Metohija.
16 Q. I cannot ask you now about the entire territory, but would you
17 give me some examples of this kind.
18 A. Well, I think the most obvious example is the area of Podujevo
19 municipality, the village of Sajkovac, the village of Svetlje, because in
20 mid-April, I learned that in the area of Baklava Smrekovnica, the lake,
21 and the village of Baklava, there were several thousand internally
22 displaced people who needed assistance.
23 Q. Did you go there?
24 A. Yes, right away, as soon as I found out about it, together with
25 Selim Guxhufi and Faik Jashari, members of the provisional provincial
1 council, I went out on the spot and I surveyed the situation and we
2 immediately organised assistance.
3 Q. What did this assistance consist of?
4 A. Well, first we had to feed those starving people. Then we had to
5 provide accommodation, health care, security, and we did this very
6 quickly. We managed to look after these people until the end of the war.
7 Q. Very well.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you now please play tab 5.12.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. It already started. It had started. You saw that it started. So
11 who is the person we can see at the beginning of this clip?
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. This tab refers to -- here it is. Who is this man?
15 A. This is Selim Guxhufi, a member of the provisional provincial
16 Executive Council, and he's an Albanian.
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Our aim was to stabilise the
18 situation everywhere in the municipality and all over the place so that
19 the free life could be restarted and you'd be able to contribute first and
20 foremost for your family and the closer relatives and the others. In
21 cooperation with the -- or the organs of power, we can assure you a
22 hundred per cent that the villages that I'm about to read out to you are
23 going to be safe for you and your life is going to be safe and nobody's
24 going to bother you or hurt you.
25 "So with this group today and tomorrow, when everything's going to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 be stabilised, we will return and register every family so that we have a
2 more exact idea whether every member of the family is around, or if they
3 are somewhere in villages or on the roads, they be found. So what I'm
4 calling for is that you cooperate with us and we cooperate with you.
5 "In the event of any dispute or disagreement, can you please tell
6 us. Let us not have any disagreements so that nothing bad should happen
7 to you or to us. We've come here with the best of intentions. We are
8 here to assist you. We have got the agreement from the highest republican
9 and provincial and municipal organs, and so you should cooperate with us
10 by all means. Every grievance that you should encounter should be
11 notified to us so that together we're able to resolve them. And given
12 that there's an array of issues we have to sort out, and we have to talk
13 to many other people on this score, I have to say that these villages
14 which I have here in hand are villages to which you can return very
15 freely. The others which I'm not about to read, they will also be
16 liberated. There's an army. There's the police there. They do not know
17 who you are, and there could be grave consequences. But the villages are,
18 for example, Shtedim, Mirofc, Belofc, Sirfisi [phoen], Poljnica, Gladeko
19 [phoen], Sibofc, Lower Sibofc, Dumoc [phoen], Radiovac [phoen] -- what
20 does this mean? Shajkofc, Latovci, Balofc, Mirofc, Batllave, Dusija
21 [phoen], Turnova, Taljabak, Shakove [phoen] -- is Shakove here? Luzani
22 and Lug.
23 "So as of today, these -- all of you can return to these villages,
24 which means that the forces have been withdrawn from these villages. So
25 from these villages. Latovci's here, Shajkofc's here, Radiojec [phoen] is
1 here, Tomovci is here, Lower Sipos [phoen] is here. Trnava is also here.
2 Lug, Shakove, Belo Polje, for example, is here. Brzac [phoen] is here,
3 Trnava is here, Taljabak as well. Batllave as well. And then we're
4 talking here about the place where there's a large concentration of
6 "I am from Dubnica and I'm going to Glavnik.
7 "So the state is ensuring your security.
8 "That's what they told us. Let's wait and see.
9 "And so you're going?
10 "Yes, we've heard that and we're going to check it out. We don't
11 know what's happened.
12 "The dispensary here in Sajkovac village is starting to function.
13 "This is a splendid thing. No, no around these two villages he
14 is the only man responsible for the health of the province so he has
15 provided two health care stations, two dispensaries which will work in
16 Svetlje and Sajkovac. All the villagers have the opportunity of getting a
17 check-up, getting medicines, and being treated.
18 "A large number of these people have nothing to eat. Their food
19 reserves have been exhausted. Through your staff is there any chance,
20 please, for the people to get some humanitarian aid as far as is actually
22 "Yes, but probably not today.
23 "I don't mean today but tomorrow.
24 "For tomorrow certainly. For tomorrow certainly. There will be
25 some tomorrow, it's too late today.
1 "The police and the army are ensuring your security in those
2 villages of the Podujevo community. Are you going to return to your
4 "For the time being, we think so.
5 "And the other villagers? Have you got somewhere you can go to?
6 "No, we're out there in the straw. There's no room here.
7 Everything's full. We've been outdoors. Everybody's out in the open.
8 There's no -- nowhere to go. We're more concerned about the children, not
9 about ourselves. But it's only the children we're most concerned about.
10 "Tomorrow the humanitarian dispensary will be working. Let's
11 wait and see. There will be some food. Let's see. We need something to
12 eat. We have to wait and see.
13 "We've been -- we've been around the mountains for about a whole
14 month with nothing at all, and we're nearing the end of our tether.
15 "All we need -- from Grasnica we've been here walking on foot
16 from Pristina to Podujevo and all along we could have made use of a bus or
17 something of this sort but we've been forced to be on foot all the time.
18 We just don't know.
19 "I've been through two wars. This is the second war. We don't
20 know what kind of war this is. What are we talking about here? We dare
21 not return. Who should we protect ourselves from, from the bombardment
22 here, the fighting here? We are upset about the children, these little
23 children, and that's why we're here. The elderly have been through this,
24 but we're most concerned about the children. That's all I have to say."
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, how much longer is this tape?
1 Mr. Milosevic, how much longer is the tape?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Milosevic is inaudible because of the sound
3 of the videotape.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Forty minutes? If it's 40 minutes, no, I'm not
5 having that.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has been shortened a lot. Look
7 here, Nis, Podujevo. They are moving north towards the interior, not
8 towards the border.
9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Is this the Podujevo community?
10 "Why have you left your houses?
11 "There is a war and we were forced to leave.
12 "Are you returning to your own houses?
14 "Are you happy to be returning home?
15 "Certainly we are.
16 "Are you fearing the bombardment?
17 "The bombardment, the children are too scared.
18 "We -- we are here on the orders of the chairman of the provincial
19 authority to bring you supplies, to distribute flour, rice, staples which
20 are elementary and most necessary to help the people. We are here to
21 discuss these problems and we believe that it will be resolved very, very
22 soon. And you should be aware that the main reason for all of this is the
23 NATO bombardment over the whole of Yugoslavia, Serbia and Kosovo.
24 Regardless of who we're talking about, children or the elderly or women.
25 I suppose that you agree with this.
1 "Yes, certainly.
2 "Everything that the members of the provisional Albanian
3 government of Kosovo has said, what is your comment on this?"
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is enough. We can proceed.
5 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm going to require that this video is
6 played in full. Being started, I have a reason for this. I require it to
7 be played in full at some stage, it's better that it's played in full now.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is your reason?
9 MR. NICE: I will explain that in cross-examination, Your Honour,
10 and if necessary, I'll take the time in cross-examination, but this tape
11 should be played in full now.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: But I think you have to explain it now, because
13 my view is that what we've seen is sufficiently representative of the
14 point that he has to make.
15 How much longer do we have to complete it, Mr. Milosevic?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can interrupt it. I gave the
17 entire tape so that everyone can use it. We can interrupt it now and I
18 will move on in order to save time. As you yourself have said, this is
19 enough to illustrate what was going on.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just a minute.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, of course I must have regard to your
23 cross-examining, and you have a right to cross-examine. You believe that
24 there is material in the rest of the tape on which you would want to
1 MR. NICE: Indeed there is. I'm quite happy if we -- I think it's
2 probably better if we have it all, but I'm quite happy if we reach the end
3 of page -- or halfway down page 8.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's continue to halfway down page 8. We're
5 going to continue to halfway down page 8. Yes.
6 [Videotape played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Two days later, the president of the
8 Executive Council, they said peacefully you should leave your homes.
9 Where are we going? We don't know. Then we came to Sajkovac. We were
10 there for four days. We left there and we were in the woods for almost
11 two weeks.
12 "Tell me, were you frightened by the bombing?
13 "Of course. Everyone was frightened, not just me. Whether I'm
14 Albanian or Serb or Macedonian or American, everyone is frightened. Even
15 Americans are frightened of bombing.
16 "But what are you afraid of?
17 "Of some bombing that may be coming into my building. I have
18 neighbours, I have. There are 15 families there, all with children.
19 Look, there are children, four children.
20 "And tell me, did you have problems with the police?
21 "Never. I'm a lawyer by profession, and I have never had any
22 problems with the police, never, never. (He shows documents and a
23 business card.) This is my business card. I was born here and my
24 grandfather and great grandfather. My grandfather has a house in the
25 middle of the town of Podujevo and we have never had problems and we never
1 will have.
2 "Tell me, how did you decide to return home?
3 "This is how we decided: Yesterday when there was that, you know,
4 we are always frightened. They are shooting there. And where they are
5 shooting they were not in the vicinity but we came out and left in the
6 direction of Pristina and today in the morning a large column set off.
7 "You said they were shooting. Who was shooting?
8 "I don't know whether it was the police shooting, whether it was
9 soldiers shooting, whether someone else was shooting, you know. And we, a
10 large column, set off, maybe 150.000 people, maybe 100.000, maybe 50.000,
11 I couldn't count them, but a large column and we set off in that column.
12 When we reached Pristina the police stopped us. He said those who are
13 from Podujevo, the Podujevo area, who have a permanent place of residence
14 in Podujevo and the surrounding villages, you are to go to Podujevo. And
15 they escorted us to 200 metres, to the way out, almost to Devet Jugovica.
16 We got to Podujevo and we turned on the indicator, turned towards the
17 centre when someone in civilian clothing came out and says, Where are you
18 off to then? I say this way, he says, Let me have a check, then, so we
19 can see. Then he had a talk - I don't know who he was talking with - he
20 said go straight towards Sajkovac.
21 "As we see, the state organs are here, so the state organs were
22 enabling you to return to your houses.
23 "Yes, we have to return, we have to return. I don't want to live
24 in someone else's house.
25 "And can we tell the criminals of NATO from here as witnesses
1 ourselves but bombs don't choose between ethnic groups.
2 "No, they don't choose any ethnic groups. Not Albanians, not
3 Serbs, not Montenegrins, not Romas, not anyone.
4 "So what can we tell the criminals of NATO?
5 "We shall tell them to settle and all Albanians are for settling
6 the Kosovo crisis peacefully for everyone. Not only for Serbs and
7 Albanians, for me. What is the use of settling it for me when my
8 neighbour does not live as he should or is afraid to live with me, for
10 "Shall we tell the criminals of NATO to get out of here?
11 "Well, there are other organs that will say that.
12 "We as ordinary people.
13 "As ordinary people, I would like this to be settled peacefully
14 for the good of everyone, whoever has a good heart and a good opinion for
15 every ethnicity.
16 "But not --
17 "Not for bombing. Not for bombing. I am not for that. And most
18 of my brothers and relations who are here are not for bombing. Who is
19 going to gain from bombing? Who will gain? No one. For people to die
20 for no purpose.
21 "Who will benefit from bombing?
22 "No one. People die for no purpose. We welcome -- we wish you a
23 safe journey back home.
24 "What's your last name?
25 "Rexhep Fusa, from Podujevo.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 "Do you want to return to your homes?
3 "So the state has enabled you to return to your own homes.
4 "Yes. We shall return for us to work and live. What can I say?"
5 "Look, Yugoslavia and NATO are at war and Albanians are paying the
6 price. You see just what disaster this is among the people, and children
7 and old people are suffering. I haven't had anything to eat for two days
8 now, nothing at all. We were in the woods for three weeks, so we have no
10 "And whose fault is it?
11 "I am no expert. I can't tell you who is to blame for this.
12 "Do you think that many people suffered, were killed, many
14 "We've been in the woods for three weeks.
15 "But Serbs and Albanians are suffering together.
16 "I'm telling you.
17 "I'm very sincere. We spent three weeks in the woods, no chance
18 to hear what's going on, and therefore I'm sorry that people were killed
19 someplace else, people who are innocent, but I'm speaking personally about
20 what I see here. Everything that we can see here, these houses, these
21 children, this crowd. I have no comments. What else can I tell you?"
22 "You see, a part of humanitarian aid which you can see here is
23 being unloaded. We have provided this for the citizens of Podujevo. We
24 will provide more and more of such aid every day. This is in coordination
25 with the organs of Serbia and the interim government of Kosovo and
2 "A little earlier we had an opportunity to talk to the citizens
3 receiving humanitarian aid, because this is not taking place just today.
4 We've been doing this since the 19th of this month, and I can tell you
5 openly that they are very satisfied and grateful to the authorities. They
6 told us that they would become active in order to accomplish all the tasks
7 set to them by the authorities. They're ready to cooperate to the maximum
8 extent, and they're very pleased with everything that has been done since
9 they returned to their villages and houses and towns.
10 "I would like to say that the aid you see here is very diverse.
11 It includes food, which is needed right now. It also includes sanitary
12 supplies. The majority of it is rice, but there's also sugar, flour,
13 pasta, other types of food supplies, and I think that the citizens will
14 welcome it. We are also working on opening in the city several bakeries.
15 One is in operation already and bakes 2 to 3.000 loaves of bread every
16 day. And in a way, in a complex situation such as this one, we will
17 ensure at least that the minimum needs of the citizens in Podujevo area
18 are met."
19 "This has to continue throughout the entire period. People have
20 to receive supplies because they are very tired from everything that's
21 been going on. They have travelled quite a lot. They're tired.
22 "But now you've returned to your homes.
23 "Well, people are still afraid. The majority has not returned,
24 but once they hear that things have calmed down, they will return soon. I
25 received a permit enabling me to move freely about the town and then we'll
1 see. I don't know what will happen next, but so far so good.
2 "What's your name?
3 "Sabri Berisha.
4 "From Podujevo?
5 "Yes, from Podujevo. I'm a tyre repairman. My workshop was
6 burned down, but God willing, we shall build a better one, a new one. As
7 long as there are no problems, we'll be able to carry on. We'll see.
8 "Thank you."
9 "This is a recording which we had today in the village of
10 Podujevo --"
11 JUDGE KWON: Is this the next one?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't really follow this. I
13 believed that they would stop after we see the footage that Mr. Nice
14 wanted to see. I don't mind seeing the entire footage.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, is this the point where we should
17 MR. NICE: I'm quite happy to stop here, yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: We finished off the tab, tab 5.12.
19 MR. KAY: Can tabs 5.11 and 5.12 be made exhibits?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Very briefly, Dr. Andric: We could see you in this tape talking
23 to citizens, you and several colleagues of yours. When I say
24 "colleagues," by that I'm trying to say that these are the people who are
25 also members of the provisional Executive Council of the government of
1 Kosovo; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who are these people? They mostly spoke in Albanian, but we also
4 saw that some words were uttered in Serbian. So who are these people who
5 mostly spoke to Albanian citizens?
6 A. Those were three members of the provincial Executive Council,
7 Jashari, Guxhufi, and Ismaili. Let me just mention that Ismaili was
8 killed after the end of the war upon returning to his village precisely
9 because he was a member of the provisional Executive Council.
10 The -- two of these people were also members of the provincial
11 staff for humanitarian issues whose chairman I was. They went with me in
12 the field all the time, assisting everyone and carrying out the activities
13 that we did.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milosevic, first of all, please establish who
15 filmed this footage and how were they compiled. And I would also like to
16 know who the journalist was who asked the questions.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer that question.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- this is just one portion of the
20 footage that was recorded at the time about the activities and events
21 taking place in Kosovo, but perhaps the witness can tell us more about
22 what you just asked.
23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Dr. Andric, please tell us what you know about who recorded this.
25 A. This footage consists of several recorded events. There was a
1 cameraman who always accompanied me whenever I went out in the field. I
2 always took him with me to record our activities. So there was a
3 journalist from Television S and cameraman Boro Danilovic who always
4 accompanied me and recorded events. This was recorded in the second half
5 of April 1999.
6 Q. At one point we saw the road sign saying "Direction Nis," which
7 showed that the column was moving in the direction of Nis, therefore away
8 from the Albanian border.
9 A. Yes. These people from Podujevo and Podujevo area were moving
10 towards the administrative border with Serbia. They were moving towards
12 Q. I have the transcript here reflecting your words to the effect
13 that the infirmary is being opened in two villages. Was it really in two
15 A. Yes. In two villages, Sajkovac and Svetlje. On that day we even
16 opened an infirmary in Glogovac. On the 29th of April, 1999. These
17 infirmaries remained open until the end of the war, providing daily
18 medical assistance to anyone who needed it.
19 Q. Yes, that's right. It is stated here as Selim Guxhufi stated,
20 "All villagers can attend infirmary, receive medication --"
21 A. And the health care was provided free to them.
22 Q. Did they receive medication right away?
23 A. Yes, right away.
24 Q. I can see here that you promised that you would bring the trucks,
25 trucks with food the following day because Guxhufi told you that the
1 people were hungry. Did you indeed send the trucks with food the
2 following day?
3 A. Yes. And until the end of the war, we provided full food supplies
4 to these people.
5 Q. Were you present there when the man said, "How can we protect
6 ourselves? Bombing here, bombing there. I feel sorry for our children.
7 We've been through a lot." Was he trying to say that they were bombing
8 the entire area?
9 A. Yes, yes. I was present there, and that's what he was trying to
11 Q. Here in the transcript we can't discern who is speaking, but I
12 think it must be Guxhufi saying that the aid has arrived and is being
13 distributed. At any rate, this is just one illustration of your
14 activities, and it involves this particular operation.
15 In my information, it is stated here that there were around 40.000
16 Albanians gathered in that area where you were at the time distributing
17 and sending aid.
18 A. Yes. At one moment there were about 40.000 of them. We sent them
19 to 16 villages where we were able to find accommodation for them, and they
20 continued living in their villages until the end of the war.
21 Q. All right. Since internally displaced persons received food,
22 assistance, and so on, tell us, do you have any statistical figures
23 reflecting that?
24 A. Yes. On a daily basis, aid was distributed. Let me give you some
25 examples. On the 3rd of May, 1999, in Vucitrn, there were several
1 thousand internally displaced persons of Albanian ethnicity. We provided
2 housing for them, and on the first day we distributed 15.000 kilogrammes
3 of food to them and found accommodation for them in the neighbouring
4 villages, Kitica [phoen], Smrekovnica.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In tab 12, gentlemen, we can see a
6 table showing the supplies that were distributed through the provincial
7 staff, precisely this staff that the witness is describing right now.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So please let us comment -- please comment this table very
11 A. Starting on the 15th of April, 1999, until the 31st of May, we
12 distributed over 300.000 kilogrammes of food and about 60.000 kilogrammes
13 of sanitary supplies. This is just part of the food that we distributed
14 through our staff for humanitarian issues. This does not include the aid
15 distributed through the Yugoslav Red Cross and later on through the
16 International Red Cross.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, this food was distributed to
18 internally displaced Albanians. The question is not so much whether Serb
19 Albanians did good works in distributing food to those who were displaced.
20 The question raised by the indictment is how these people became
21 displaced. What was the cause of their displacement. That is what should
22 be investigated. Nothing really turns on the good works that were done
23 while they were displaced. The issue is how did they come to be
24 displaced. Generally the indictment says that the Serbs were responsible
25 for the displacement. That's the issue. So evidence of the good works
1 done by Serbs to them while they were displaced is not taking us much
2 further in dealing with the precise issues raised by the indictment.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I hope that these
4 illustrations, although I do not think that things can be generalised, but
5 I hope that these illustrations show clearly that people said they were
6 fleeing from bombing. There were places in Kosovo and Metohija that were
7 subjected to more severe bombing and those subjected to less severe
8 bombing, but this is a relative notion because the entire territory of
9 Kosovo and Metohija was bombed 24 hours a day for 78 days. People fled
10 the areas that were hit the most. There were also areas where there were
11 conflicts, especially in certain regions. These were conflicts between
12 our forces and the KLA, and people also fled those areas.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What I'm suggesting is you concentrate the
14 evidence on the reasons for the displacement, but proceed.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Andric, what were the reasons? Please tell us. You had many
17 contacts with these people, together with other members of the Executive
18 Council; Guxhufi, Jashari and Ibrahimi. So please tell us, how did these
19 people become displaced? It was very nice of you to help them, you heard
20 what Mr. Robinson just said, but why did they become displaced?
21 A. I have already stated several times that the exodus started the
22 day NATO began its aggression and bombing. They left their towns and
23 villages and went to places they believed were safer.
24 In addition to that, there were also places where there was severe
25 fighting going on between the members of the so-called KLA and the army or
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 police, and the population also fled those areas and went to calmer
3 However, I have to say that the internally displaced persons were
4 not internally displaced throughout the entire 78 days. They were
5 displaced perhaps for 15 or 10 days, and then they would return to their
6 homes. In Sajkovac, we only initially distributed the food to the
7 internally displaced persons until we found housing for them. These --
8 this involves 40.000 people who were displaced only initially, and later
9 on we were able to take them back to their villages, and then we provided
10 assistance to them there. There were only a small -- there was only a
11 small number of residents who was unable to return to their homes, so we
12 housed them in temporary accommodation.
13 Q. All right. Now, let us take a look at tab 13. This previous one
14 was tab 12.
15 [Videotape played]
16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The refugees who for months were
17 running around returned and began their normal life, and as promised
18 yesterday, the members of the -- of the provisional council, Selim Jashari
19 [as interpreted] and Selim Guxhufi, the first mobile medical units were
20 installed here and they will serve the inhabitants of this -- of this
21 region and provide the medicaments and the medical aid for everybody,
22 including the children. All of this is done with a view towards --
23 towards surviving the NATO agreement which would basically come to be
24 illustrated through the popular saying that you can judge the best days if
25 you look at the sky in the morning."
1 "From the establishment of the staff of humanitarian affairs and
2 internally displaced persons on the 19th April, over 200 tons of food and
3 20 tons of toiletries were distributed.
4 "We have to deal with internally displaced persons because that
5 was required by the situation on the ground. We had initially over 50.000
6 displaced persons, and their problem was dealt with successfully. Then
7 the problem of Vucitrn, Glogova, and ever new places occurred. However,
8 we managed to deal with them successfully.
9 "In order to be as operative as we can, we in the Kosovo staff
10 formed area staffs and municipal staffs, such as in Podujevo, which helped
11 us deal with the problems of Sajkovac and other places. The principle of
12 the Kosovo staff, the guiding principle of our staff is to help people and
13 distribute humanitarian aid regardless of ethnicity. So we distributed it
14 to Albanians, Serbs, the Gorani, the Roma, everybody who needed it. We
15 didn't forget any of the three ethnic communities. We distributed,
16 however, a certain portion of that food to specific ethnic communities.
17 For instance, we drove one truck today to Mamusa, and we distributed a
18 truck full of food to Egyptians today. Yesterday, we drove a truck full
19 of food and toiletries to the Gora municipality, and we took care in the
20 same way of the ethnic community of the Roma. And I believe that all
21 ethnic communities specifically can be pleased with our work.
22 "One of the burning problems is health care provision in the
23 areas where displaced persons are located and where persons are trying to
24 return home. We believe that we have done all in our power in cooperation
25 with the health care centre of the Kosovo district and with the Kosovo
1 health care institute. I believe we did our best. Wherever there was a
2 large concentration of displaced persons, we did not allow any epidemics
3 to develop and the epidemiological situation has always been under
4 control. We distributed medicine wherever it was needed. There were
5 mobile medical teams constantly on the ground from the health care centre
6 of the Kosovo district that went into the field every day. Today they are
7 in the Glogovac municipality where there are rampant problems. Glogovac
8 has not had a steady water supply for some time, so there is still --
9 there is still a threat of an epidemic. I believe the mobile teams of the
10 provincial health centre institute and the health care centre of Kosovo
11 will resolve the problem.
12 "If we can't find any other solution to supply water to Glogovac,
13 we will have to disinfect the local wells that exist there. That problem
14 has to be placed under control to avoid a major epidemic."
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So, Dr. Andric, apart from looking after internally displaced
17 persons, was it one of your obligations to work for returning life to
18 normalcy in all areas, to prevent contagion, epidemics, provision of food,
19 water, restoring water supply? Are all these problems that you had to
20 deal with this in period where bombs were falling 24 hours a day?
21 A. Kosovo teams for health care were on the ground every day and we
22 were trying to do all that we would normally be doing in peacetime;
23 distribution of consumer goods, water supply, restoration of
24 communications between towns and cities, because -- although that was a
25 very difficult task because there was a lot of destruction -- people
1 needed to be provided with continued health care. Supply of electricity
2 had to continue uninterrupted. Briefly, everything that normal life
4 We tried whatever we could. We did our best to normalise life in
5 that period.
6 Q. Some of those internally displaced people remained displaced, but
7 large numbers were put up in provisional accommodation and a certain
8 number of people were convinced, after all, to return to their homes. Is
9 that so?
10 A. Wherever we could tell people that their homes were safe, we told
11 them to return. However, the largest number of people could not return
12 because war operations were under way in the areas concerned.
13 Q. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What war operations?
14 A. Well, in the areas where we were present, there was fighting
15 between the regular police and the army on the one hand, and the so-called
16 KLA, the terrorist gangs.
17 Q. I understand. You said those terrorist gangs were active there.
18 So is that what your colleague Guxhufi was trying to explain to that crowd
19 of Albanians in the video clip when he was holding a map and telling them
20 to which villages it was safe to return and which they should avoid
21 because fighting was going on?
22 A. Precisely. Sixteen villages were safe for them to return to.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... you are
24 concluding now and that's why I haven't taken the adjournment, because we
25 are past the time.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have a number of questions
2 pending, Mr. Robinson. I've really been doing my level best to finish
3 before the end of this session, but a number of questions are still left.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Chamber is appreciative of that effort.
5 We will now take the adjournment for 20 minutes.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Please continue, Mr. Milosevic.
9 JUDGE KWON: And I note that tab 5.13, 5.14, as well as tab 12 are
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Kwon.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Dr. Andric, let us try to cover some more exhibits. I will not
14 quote them in detail here. Just briefly look at tab 13. It relates to
15 measures you took to normalise the conditions of life, to provide the
16 necessary medicines and vaccines for children, for babies that had not
17 been vaccinated yet. But then in tab 14, you see a number of subitems
18 from which we can see that there is a serious problem of water supply,
19 water testing and provision of potable water.
20 Tell me, why was the water problem so serious?
21 A. Because the installations for production and filtering of water
22 were seriously damaged by NATO bombing, in Pristina and Gnjilane
23 specifically. In Gnjilane, for instance, there was no fresh drinking
24 water for over a month, and in Pristina there was no potable water for a
25 long time because these installations had been damaged.
1 Q. In tab 14.1, 2 to 5, we letters from the institute for health care
2 which deal primarily with restoring normal life conditions. What efforts
3 were made to restore normalcy, and did you manage to restore a normal
4 water supply to these areas of Kosovo and Metohija?
5 A. Yes. There were problems in every area, especially in Pristina
6 because it's a large city, and in Gnjilane. But I would particularly like
7 to emphasise the problem of Glogovac where the water supply system had
8 occasionally suffered for problems even before the war because the water
9 pipes were obsolete. And during the war, we had to provide fresh water to
10 civilians from the existing wells, and every day we would bring cisterns,
11 water tanks to Glogova and distribute fresh water to the population there.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us not waste any more time on
13 this. I would like documents under tab 14 tendered in their entirety, 13
14 and 14.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Mr. Milosevic, just -- in tab 14.1, this is
16 the professor, this is the professor's signature. The Federal Institute
17 for Preventive Medicine, and the first sentence is, "The vital water
18 treatment facilities in Sajkovac and Badovac have been damaged by enemy
19 airstrikes." That might be how this aspect of the evidence could be
20 relevant, but simply to have evidence of what the professor did as a
21 doctor in relation to refugees and to people who were injured, to help
22 them, is not so relevant. But if the water treatment facilities were
23 damaged by air strikes and as a result of that your case is that people --
24 the Albanians had to flee, then that's a different matter. So I'm not
25 certain whether that is -- whether anything can be made of that, but I
1 just thought I'd bring that to your attention.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for this, Mr. Robinson.
3 Maybe you didn't quite notice it while you were looking at another
4 document, but I just asked the witness, since these tabs contain a number
5 of documents relating to measures taken by authorities to normalise life
6 in many areas in Kosovo and Metohija, I asked him why water supply was a
7 problem, and he answered that the water supply was a particular problem in
8 Pristina and in another town because NATO strikes damaged a number of
9 water supply and water treatment facilities, and it took superhuman
10 efforts for them to provide fresh water to the population in a very large
11 area, to conduct medical examination of a large number of people, to
12 prevent epidemics, to provide immunisation, and that's why I required
13 these documents to be tendered into evidence.
14 So I would appreciate if you would admit into evidence tabs 13 and
15 14 containing a number of documents.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Dr. Andric, you have already explained that you accommodated some
19 of these displaced persons in houses or elsewhere, but some did go to
20 Albania. Can you explain this? In spite of all your care and assistance
21 and the supplies you provided, some of them went to Albania. Why?
22 A. Yes. This happened in the Glogovac area, where we were active
23 throughout the war, and this was where the so-called KLA, the terrorists,
24 were especially active, and all the local inhabitants went to Glogovac
25 where they could have more peace and security.
1 In mid-May, about 8.000 internally displaced Albanians turned up
2 in an area near the Celinac river. We went there and began our usual
3 procedure of taking care of their needs, and they remained there for quite
4 some time.
5 Toward the end of the war, for reasons I cannot explain, some of
6 these Albanians went. I assume part of them went to their villages, but
7 some of them went to the Republic of Albania.
8 Q. During the NATO aggression on Kosovo and Metohija, did
9 humanitarian aid arrive from abroad? And let me add another question to
10 that: How was it distributed if it arrived?
11 A. Yes, humanitarian did arrive from abroad. The first large
12 shipment arrived from Greece through an organisation called European
13 Perspective. It was a gift from the Greek government. There were 200
14 tons of different foodstuffs. It arrived on the 27th of April.
15 In mid-May, the international or, rather, the office of the ICRC
16 for Yugoslavia brought in a large convoy containing food. There were 13
17 trucks, trailer trucks, and all this humanitarian assistance was
18 distributed according to need. Our only rule when distributing it was the
19 need of the population for this humanitarian aid regardless of ethnicity.
20 Q. Very well. In tab 5.15, we can see how humanitarian aid arrived,
21 and here we can see that you provide an explanation, saying that it was
22 being distributed non-selectively to everyone who needed it.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I'm asking you, I want
24 this tab to be introduced but I have described what it contains. Perhaps
25 we can skip over it.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. NICE: I think we should hear it. I think we should see it.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well. Could you
3 please then play tab 5.15.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Let it be played.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. This is you, as we can see.
8 A. Yes, leaving the clinic.
9 Q. Is this the humanitarian aid from Greece?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is not the first time
12 humanitarian aid has come from Greece. Could you tell us something more
13 about it?
14 "Well, in the past week this is the third time humanitarian aid
15 has come from friendly Greece. It's the third convoy. There were 11
16 trucks in this last convoy, with some 220 tons of goods, mostly
17 foodstuffs. Humanitarian aid will be contributed to all those in this
18 area who need it."
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. This is tab 5.15. I've already described its contents.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a moment. This is the next
22 clip. Just a moment, please. Could you stop it now. This is not the tab
23 in question. This is the next clip.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Dr. Andric, apart from Serbs and Montenegrins and other
1 non-Albanians in general who were fleeing Kosovo towards central Serbia,
2 were there any Albanians among them fleeing towards central Serbia and
4 A. Yes. A part of the Albanians fled in the direction of Serbia and
6 Q. What does this tell us? What can you say on the basis of this? I
7 don't want to put a leading question to you. If they were fleeing towards
8 central Serbia, I assume they were not fleeing from the state authorities.
9 A. Well, of course, because if they were fleeing the government
10 authorities, why would they be rushing into their arms? It's evident.
11 Q. Apart from residential buildings, did NATO target other civilian
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What can you tell us about it?
15 A. Apart from these convoys, they targeted bridges, means of
16 transportation, water processing plants, telecommunication plants,
17 electrical transformer plants.
18 Q. Did you --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
20 MR. NICE: There's so many of them one tends to get relaxed about
21 leading questions but the question, "Did NATO target other civilian
22 facilities?" is clearly leading but I'll deal with it in
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
25 MR. KAY: Can 5.15 be an exhibit?
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, admitted.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Dr. Andric, you said that they targeted other facilities.
4 Specifically did you have any knowledge as to how a bus full of passengers
5 was targeted travelling on the Nis-Pristina road near the village of
6 Luzani? This is just an example.
7 A. Yes. This happened on the 1st of May at 1300 hours. The NATO Air
8 Force and the Lab river in Luzani hit a bus full of passengers, and on
9 that occasion 39 passengers were killed. Twenty-nine of them were
10 Albanians and ten were Serbs. There were also 12 passengers seriously
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the question that you asked was
13 how a bus full of passengers was targeted, and you got an answer.
14 Are you saying, Professor, that that busload of passengers was
15 actually targeted by NATO?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour Judge Robinson, the bus
17 was hit. There is no doubt that it was done by NATO bombs. I assume
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: The question that you were asked and which you
20 answered affirmatively was related to the bus being targeted. Do you have
21 any specific evidence that the hitting of the bus by the NATO bomb was the
22 result of a specific targeting of the bus by NATO?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what kind of evidence I
24 could have, but I know for certain that the NATO Air Force fired and that
25 a bus full of passengers was hit on the bridge. This was a civilian bus
1 belonging to the Nis Ekspres company travelling on the regular line, and
2 it contained mostly Albanians who were travelling, I assume, from Podujevo
3 to Pristina.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Milosevic, please continue.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Dr. Andric, in tab 15 in the clip showing this bus, let me first
7 put a question to you. This was a civilian bus on a regular line?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. This was the regular route it took, and you assumed that they were
10 travelling from one place to another. Of course, if this is a regular
11 service --
12 MR. NICE: The accused can just give the evidence, if he likes.
13 We've now had leading question, assumption made by the witness. It's up
14 to the accused, but none of these questions are likely to be of any --
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you'll have to rephrase that
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I will rephrase it.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Dr. Andric, would you please put on the ELMO the photographs from
20 tab 15.
21 Dr. Andric, was this the bus running on the regular service route?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was it hit on the bridge, and were several dozen passengers
24 killed? Was it hit by a plane belonging to the NATO pact?
25 A. There is no doubt about it.
1 Q. Could it be assumed that the bus was hit because it was not
2 targeted or because it was targeted?
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: He can't answer that. He can't answer that,
4 Mr. Milosevic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In the broader area around that bus on that bridge, was there any
8 other facility that might have been a target for the bombing?
9 A. No. I know that area very well, and I was on the spot half an
10 hour after the event.
11 Q. In the vicinity are there any military facilities, any barracks,
12 or any kind of centre near the bridge on which that bus was hit?
13 A. No. The village of Luzani is nearby, with only small family
15 Q. There is nothing else nearby?
16 A. Absolutely nothing.
17 Q. Thank you, Dr. Andric. Will you tell me briefly now, did any
18 foreign representatives visit Kosovo and Metohija during the NATO bombing?
19 A. Yes, they did. I remember that in mid-May, in the second half of
20 May, the chief of the office for Yugoslavia of the ICRC, Mr. Dominique
21 Diffours visited Kosovo.
22 Q. Very well. Can we have a look at tab 16, please, and I'll put my
23 next question. What places did they want to visit in Kosovo and Metohija
24 and what did they see on the ground, these foreign representatives?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please play tab 5.16.
1 [Videotape played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Professor Vukasin Andric and the
3 chairman of the Committee for Humanitarian Issues, Veljko Odalovic, talked
4 today with the head of the International Committee of the Red Cross for
5 the FRY, Dominique Diffours. During the talks it was emphasised that in
6 these difficult times for the FRY, when the entire country and the entire
7 population are exposed to round-the-clock airstrikes and aid is needed
8 from humanitarian organisations. To that end, possibilities were reviewed
9 to reactivate the Red Cross subcommittee in Pristina which is supposed to
10 cover the area of Kosovo and Metohija. It was emphasised that aid by our
11 humanitarian organisations had been offered to everyone regardless of
12 their ethnicity, religion, or race from the first day of the NATO
13 aggression. The provisional Executive Council and Red Cross reacted every
14 time and provided necessary aid to civilians who were endangered by the
15 aggression of the NATO alliance. It was said that all international
16 humanitarian organisations left the area when the aggression started.
17 However, it is encouraging that some, like the ICRC, are returning to
18 Kosovo and Metohija again. Almost two months of ceaseless airstrikes have
19 left severe consequences on civilians since many facilities were destroyed
20 and many people have been displaced. It was agreed that in the future
21 cooperation between the ICRC, the Red Cross of Kosovo and Metohija and
22 state organs will be based on joint assistance to the threatened
23 population. It was emphasised that the ICRC will provide adequate basic
24 staples and other need -- other things that are needed to overcome the
25 humanitarian problems in Kosovo and Metohija."
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can now pass on to the next tab.
2 Yes, please continue because we will comment both clips together in order
3 to save time.
4 [Videotape played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Svend Robinson, a member of the New
6 Democratic Party, which has 21 MPs in the Canadian parliament and which is
7 against the NATO aggression against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,
8 visited Kosovo and Metohija today. Accompanied by members of the interim
9 Executive Council, Robinson visited the village of Sajkovac in Podujevo
10 municipality. The local authorities informed the Canadian MP of the
11 current situation in the area. Robinson said that he had come to the FRY
12 to acquaint himself first-hand with the situation, the consequences of the
13 NATO bombing, and the Yugoslav government's position regarding a peaceful
14 and political resolution of the crisis in Kosovo and Metohija. The
15 Canadian MP also visited a bridge near Luzani where the NATO aggressor
16 killed about 50 innocent civilians who were travelling to Pristina in a
17 Nis Ekspres bus on the 1st of May. In the village of Staro Gracko he
18 could also see first-hand the NATO aggressors democratic effects. He
19 visited the household of the Jankovic family, where two members were
20 killed by the NATO aggressors, as well as the house of the Dinic family
21 where four-year-old Dragana Dinic was killed. Svend Robinson also visited
22 a site with several unexploded cluster bombs when he was able to see that
23 there were only civilian buildings in the area and no military or police
24 forces nearby.
25 "At the clinical hospital centre in Pristina, centre director
1 Dr. Rade Grbic informed Robinson of how victims of the NATO aggressor's
2 attacks were treated, regardless of their religious or ethnic background.
3 Svend Robinson said that he had come to our country in order to see for
4 himself the consequences of the NATO bombing and to hear our position
5 regarding a possible political solution."
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, the NATO bombing is relevant, but
7 it is relevant in a particular way. The NATO bombing is not in and of
8 itself a part of the case. It is relevant, in my view, principally in two
10 It's relevant if you are saying that as a result of the NATO
11 bombing the charges in the indictment that relate to Albanians fleeing
12 their homes and which the indictment attributes to the activities of Serbs
13 is actually the result of the bombing. That's one way in which it is
15 It's also relevant in this way: If you're saying that the charges
16 -- some of the charges in the indictment which are attributed to Serbs
17 were a response to the bombing. I understand that part of your case is
18 that NATO was in collusion with the KLA. So if some of the activities --
19 if you're saying that some of the activities attributable to the Serbs
20 were in fact responsive to, were in fact defensive action in response to
21 NATO bombing, then that is obviously relevant. But the NATO bombing is
22 not in and of itself a part of the case. NATO is not charged.
23 So two principal ways: One, defensive, self-defence; and
24 secondly, in relation to charges concerning refugees.
25 I've allowed you to lead the evidence about NATO bombing even when
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 it is not clearly related to any of those issues, because the issues are
2 very intertwined, they're so closely interrelated. But I have to give you
3 a warning that you will not be allowed to continue leading evidence about
4 the NATO bombing unless it is specifically relevant, and I gave you two
5 examples of how it could be relevant, because we don't have time to waste
6 in this case.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Just continue. Just continue. I don't want to
10 have another long intervention.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to correct -- I'm
12 not going to go into a long comment, but what was shown here and will be
13 shown here and everything that has been shown so far clearly indicates the
14 cause and consequence relation that exists between the bombing and the
15 fleeing of people from Kosovo. You know that hundred thousand Serbs also
16 fled Kosovo. So if Serbs expelled Albanians, why would they expel Serbs
17 as well?
18 Percentage-wise, the number of Serbs fleeing Kosovo was greater
19 than the number of Albanians.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Andric, we saw that a Canadian MP even took photographs of the
22 fragmentation bomb that was dropped in Kosovo and Metohija. Not just
23 there but also in Nis, in front of the clinical and hospital centre in
24 Nis. So please tell us, what did you discuss with these international
25 representatives? Is it clear that they were unaware of the fact that such
1 bombs were used?
2 A. Yes. The Canadian MP wanted to go to the village where a couple
3 was killed and a four-year-old girl, and he was able to see for himself
4 that between the 11th and the 12th of May that village was hit with
5 cluster bombs. He even took pictures of cluster bombs.
6 Q. Did they want to visit some other places that were of special
7 interest too? Very briefly, please.
8 A. They wanted to go and see villages and see how people live in
9 villages. They toured several villages in Podujevo municipality and were
10 able to see for themselves that people carried on their regular calm way
11 of life, carrying out their daily activities.
12 In addition to that, they wanted to tour the hospital centre, and
13 Mr. Robinson wanted to see the civilian victims of Serb police and army.
14 I quoted his words verbatim. I told him he could enter any ward he
15 wanted, any clinic he wanted within that hospital centre and that there
16 was simply no such victims, no such patients there. He refused to go in
17 and visit the hospital centre.
18 And towards the end you were able to see that he also toured the
19 Serbian Orthodox cemetery in Pristina which was also hit with two NATO
20 rounds which destroyed about a dozen of tombstones.
21 Q. Sometime in May, and you can be more accurate if you know, you
22 also had a visit by Sergio De Mello, who was the chief of the UN mission
23 for humanitarian issues. Do you remember what they wanted to see? Where
24 did you take them, and what can you tell us about the visit of the special
25 envoy of the UN Secretary-General, Sergio De Mello?
1 A. Well, he visited the entire territory of Kosovo and Metohija. My
2 associates and I met him. He wanted to see the destroyed facilities in
3 Gnjilane, mostly civilian industrial facilities, the administrative
4 building of the construction company, the building of the automobile
5 association, the building of the transportation company Kosmet Prevoz,
6 also their workshops. After that, we went to Pristina.
7 On the following day he visited Kacanik and Urosevac. That was on
8 the 21st of May, 1999. He arrived on the 20th of May.
9 On the 22nd of May, I personally went with Mr. De Mello to visit
10 the entire Podujevo area. He was able to see for himself that the
11 population was taken care of there, that they lived in their homes. After
12 that we went to Prizren, Djakovica, Decani and Pec. It was a Sunday. I
13 remember that well. In the afternoon, Mr. De Mello left Kosovo and
14 Metohija and went to Montenegro.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have here under tab 5.18 video
16 footage depicting the visit of Sergio De Mello, and I think the witness
17 has described it sufficiently. However, if you insist that the clip be
18 played, that's fine. This is tab 5.18.
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: No. If you don't want the clip to be played, it
20 will not be played. We want to move on.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. I simply asked if it was
22 necessary to play it in order for it to be admitted into evidence. If it
23 is, then let's play it.
24 MR. KAY: There was an issue, I recall, in the Prosecution case
25 involving I think their second witness, Mr. Spargo, who had a large number
1 of videotapes, I think some three hours and 40 minutes, and the Court on
2 that occasion ruled that they could just as well view the videos outside
3 court hours as use up court time in the viewing of them. Perhaps that
4 would be an acceptable solution in this case where we have spent some
5 considerable time looking at the videos.
6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. So there is that precedent.
7 Mr. Nice.
8 MR. NICE: This is probably the first time that we have seen -- it
9 may be the first time that we've seen Andjelkovic, so I think perhaps --
10 it won't take very long, perhaps we ought to have a look at it if we can.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do we need to see all of it?
12 MR. NICE: I'm not sure if it's possible to do it without seeing
13 all of it.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: It can't be stopped?
15 MR. NICE: It's only three minutes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It isn't long.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's three minutes. All right. Let's play it.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, not long at all. We can play
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Okay, three minutes. Let's play it.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's even less than three.
22 [Videotape played]
23 THE INTERPRETER: "The Under-Secretary of the UN Interagency
24 Mission for Humanitarian Issues, Mr. Sergio De Mello, and his associates,
25 who are in Kosovo and Metohija, were met by the members of the provisional
1 Executive Council, Professor Vukasin Andric and Guljbehar Sabovic as well
2 as the head of the Kosovo-Morava District, Predrag Kovacevic.
3 "The head of the district informed those in attendance of the
4 consequences of the NATO bombing the previous day in Gnjilane.
5 "He informed them that garages, workshops and the factory canteen
6 were demolished in yesterday's bombing of the Mladost agricultural
7 complex. Three female workers were killed within that same compound.
8 "The construction company's Binacka Morava facilities were hit
9 and two workers killed.
10 "The Kosmet Prevoz company was shelled with four rounds
11 yesterday. The Automobile Club, which began to work only last year, was
12 completely demolished.
13 "The water supply grid was damaged in NATO bombings and Gnjilane
14 residents were without water for a total of 15 days.
15 "The total damage in Gnjilane is enormous as it was solely
16 civilian buildings that were targetted. Since the beginning of NATO
17 bombing, in addition to the aforementioned casualties, more than 60
18 civilians have been wounded. Fifteen people were wounded in yesterday's
19 attack alone."
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just need to verify something,
22 Mr. Robinson. It was probably my own omission, but I'm not sure whether
23 you admitted into evidence tab 12, which described the aid distributed
24 through this staff.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ...
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Just several more questions, Dr. Andric. Did you remain in Kosovo
4 and Metohija after the war?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Until what time?
7 A. Until 25th of June, 1999.
8 Q. Please tell us briefly, what was the security situation like for
9 Serbs in Pristina after the KFOR's arrival? You were in Pristina, weren't
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did KFOR protect you at all; and if so, how?
13 A. After the arrival of KFOR forces in the territory of Kosovo and
14 Metohija and before the arrival, we hoped that they would be able to
15 protect not just Serbs but all non-Albanians. An unprecedented
16 persecution of non-Albanian population, including Serb population, began.
17 They started raiding apartments, looting, beating people, killing them,
18 kidnapping them, simply a terrible hunt on people began.
19 Q. How long did you continue working at the hospital centre in
20 Pristina and why did you stop working there?
21 A. I stopped working there on the 25th of June, 1999, because it was
22 impossible to continue under those circumstances. Already on the 20th of
23 June, 1999, in the courtyard of the hospital centre we saw an armoured
24 battalion of KFOR, and we were very pleased. We hoped that they would be
25 able to protect us and the entire institution.
1 However, on the 21st of June, the doctors, professors, Albanians
2 who had previously left their jobs came back, asking to be allowed in. On
3 the 22nd of June, they forced their way into the clinics and the medical
4 school. Not just them but some people that I saw then for the first time
5 in my life. They were tanned. They had tanned faces, and I realised that
6 they were the former KLA members who had donned on civilian clothing. The
7 unprecedented harassment began, and we continued working under those
9 On the 22nd of June, they killed Professor Lekovic from the
10 faculty of economy and his two associates, who were beaten beyond
11 recognition. Several days after that Mr. Tomanovic, director of the
12 surgical hospital, was killed. He operated on a very large number of
13 people, many of them Albanians.
14 We tried working under those conditions. Everybody was
15 threatened. Everybody received death threats, and we were sure that they
16 would proceed with their threats until they killed us all.
17 We managed to survive there until Friday the end of June, and on
18 that Friday we left the institute.
19 Q. You said that your mother-in-law was killed during NATO bombing.
20 Were any other of your relatives killed during the aggression or after
21 KFOR arrival?
22 A. Yes. On the 22nd of June in the evening my wife's brother was
23 killed. He went to visit the apartment of his younger brother from which
24 his younger brother had been evicted by the KLA members. He went there
25 with his wife and his child. It was evening, and when he got there he
1 found a note on the door and it had the following Albanian words, the
2 witness quotes in Albanian, which translated into Serbian, means "This is
3 KLA's apartment. Do not enter. It has been mined."
4 He went to report this to the British members of the KFOR and was
5 killed some 20 metres further away.
6 Q. Do you know of anybody else who was killed? Was there another
7 colleague of yours, professor or doctor who was kidnapped and killed after
8 the arrival of the international forces?
9 A. I've already mentioned Professor Tomanovic and Professor Lekovic
10 from the faculty of economy.
11 On the day of the flag, in the centre of Pristina, that was on the
12 28th of November, 1999, Professor Basic, who taught at the civil
13 engineering factory, was killed. In August, Dr. Slate Grigurjevic
14 [phoen], a renowned paediatrician, was killed in his practice, private
15 practice. And on the 26th of February, 2000, I think, in the centre of
16 Gnjilane, a renowned gynaecologist, Dr. Vasic, was killed.
17 Q. Please tell me, how and when did you leave Pristina and where did
18 you go?
19 A. I left Pristina on the 25th of June, 1999, in the afternoon,
20 escorted by the International Red Cross staff, and I went to central
21 Serbia. That was the only way for me to leave the territory of Kosovo and
22 Metohija safely because I had received death threats.
23 Q. Where do you live now and what is your job now?
24 A. I currently live in Kosovska Mitrovica. I am a full-time tenured
25 professor of the medical school of the Pristina University, now
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 temporarily relocated to Kosovska Mitrovica. Unfortunately, this is the
2 only university in the so-called free Europe and free world working in
3 immigration. In addition to that, I work in the otorhinolaryngology ward
4 of the Kosovska Mitrovica hospital, which is the only hospital where Serbs
5 in Kosovo and Metohija can be treated.
6 Q. Dr. Andric, I have just one more question for you. You've lived
7 -- you lived in Pristina for a long time. Do you know any Serb from
8 Pristina - your neighbour, colleague, friend, anyone - who was not
9 ethnically cleansed from Pristina under the sponsorship of the
10 international forces? Do you know of a single case?
11 A. Until March of last year, perhaps I did know some cases of people
12 who lived under extremely difficult, undignified conditions, as though in
13 concentration camp. That's how they lived in Pristina.
14 After the last year's pogrom, no such people remain in Pristina
15 any more. Prior to that, they lived in a building. All of them were
16 concentrated in just one building that was called the U-programme
17 building, and nowadays the only city open to the Serbs is Kosovska
18 Mitrovica, which is in the northern part of Kosovo and Metohija.
19 Q. I have no further questions.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, I have concluded my
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Milosevic, and for the effort you
23 have made to be as economical as possible in your use of the time, and we
24 expect the same from the Prosecutor.
25 MR. NICE: -- finish today.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Nice, please.
2 MR. NICE: We won't be able to finish today, and the witness will
3 have to come back on Monday. Maybe the Chamber is about to take a break,
4 I have no idea, but may I make this preparatory remark: Of course I not
5 only aim for two thirds, I aim for much better than two-thirds, because of
6 the reality that time on administration is out of my control. It comes
7 out of the two-thirds.
8 With a witness like this, particularly when he's been allowed - I
9 make no complaint - to give the most general evidence on paragraphs in the
10 indictment, it's not possible for me to cross-examine him fully and I
11 shan't attempt to do so. I shall choose a sufficient number of topics I
12 think will be helpful to the Chamber.
13 Again by way of observations that may explain a little the
14 shortening of what would be otherwise a full examination of this witness,
15 the issue of the poisoning, I may ask a question about it. It was never
16 raised by the Prosecution. It was raised in cross-examination of an early
17 witness by the accused, and I subsequently asked one question, I think, of
18 one witness. It doesn't seem to me to be a material issue and I shall
19 almost certainly not raise it.
20 As to the position of the doctors, it was in paragraph 67, or is
21 it 87, of the indictment as background material. No evidence, as far as I
22 can see, was led that was specifically related to discriminatory acts
23 against doctors, simply for want of time. The accused chose not to engage
24 himself in the process of analysis that came at the end of the
25 Prosecution's case and has opened the issue up -- when he could have dealt
1 with that as a matter if he wanted to -- and has opened the issue up. I
2 will, in the circumstances and in light of what's been said, deal with
3 that to some degree.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: I agree with you about the doctors and that there
5 is no allegation against doctors for discrimination. I'm not so sure I
6 agree with you about your evaluation of the evidence relating to poison.
7 It may be that the accused is saying that this particular behaviour was
8 representative of how the Albanians behaved.
9 MR. NICE: Certainly he is. He's raised it. It's not one of our
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
12 MR. KAY: Before we move on, can we make 5.18, tab 15, tab 16, and
13 tab 17 exhibits?
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you.
15 Yes, please start, Mr. Nice.
16 JUDGE KWON: The break is at quarter past.
17 MR. NICE: Quarter past. I completely lost track of time.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
19 Q. Dr. Andric, a little bit more about yourself, please, if you'd be
20 so good. You now, of course, only work in the Belgrade centred hospital
21 in north Mitrovica; yes?
22 A. No, Mr. Nice. That's not correct. I work in the clinical
23 hospital centre of Pristina, which was temporary -- temporarily relegated
24 to the northern part of Kosovska Mitrovica. It is not a Belgrade centred
25 hospital, it is a Pristina hospital.
1 Q. Should you -- should you be known to the doctors in the Pristina
2 hospital at the moment?
3 A. Very probably. Maybe not all of them know me, but those that I
4 have worked with know me. You mean Albanian doctors?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. I suppose they know me. I can't imagine they forgot me so
8 Q. You see, Dr. Andric, we had in advance of your giving evidence not
9 very much information. I'll just explain: We were told as to you that
10 you would give evidence about persecution of Albanians and their
11 expulsion, about Yugoslav and Serb efforts to prevent propaganda motivated
12 moving out, circumstances preceding the conflict, personal knowledge of
13 facts, personal knowledge of activities of the parties, personal knowledge
14 of the military, the police, and other armed activities. And we were also
15 told you were a member of the provisional Executive Council, but that's
16 all we got, you see. Do you understand me?
17 A. Yes, I understand. I was a member of the provisional Executive
18 Council, that is, the provisional government, as I mentioned in my
20 Q. Then we got this little file of exhibits just over a week, I think
21 it was, wasn't it? About a week ago. And we had to work out what you
22 were going to tell us by way of evidence. Let's just explore the
23 provisional Executive Council a little bit more, and if time allows, a
24 great deal more.
25 MR. NICE: The accused seems to be speaking to the witness, either
1 asking him to answer a question or volunteering an answer. Perhaps he
2 would be restrained from doing that.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. Mr. Robinson, I was
4 addressing the liaison officer because I don't have the date in front of
5 me. I was going to challenge the assertion that this file was given to
6 Mr. Nice a week ago. This binder with various tabs was disclosed much
7 more than a week ago.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues] ... proceed.
9 MR. NICE: Received on the 17th of February. What's the date
10 today? Just over a week ago. A week ago. I was right.
11 Q. Now, Dr. Andric, the history and summary of the temporary
12 Executive Council is this: That following the change in Kosovo's
13 constitutional position at the end of the 1980s, you will see what you
14 said about it if necessary, there were no elections for many years, were
16 A. Correct. There were no elections.
17 Q. Kosovo was simply administered directly by people from Belgrade.
18 A. Mr. Nice, there were no elections or, rather, there were
19 elections, but one side, although able to participate in the elections,
20 chose not to. It had that democratic right to take part in the elections,
21 but they did not exercise it.
22 Q. The elections actually happened and people were voted into office
23 for governmental bodies, or were there no elections?
24 A. Elections were held when the multi-party system was introduced in
25 Serbia. However, Albanians before and during that period ignored the
1 elections and did not turn up, did not turn out. Everybody else apart
2 from the Albanians took part in the elections and voted.
3 Q. In 1998, the decision was made, and it ultimately was this
4 accused's decision, was it not, to create this temporary Executive Council
5 which was formally established by the Serbian Assembly?
6 A. You're not right, Mr. Nice. The provisional Executive Council was
7 established at the second extraordinary session of the republic Assembly
8 on the 28th of September, 1998, at the proposal of the government of
9 Serbia, not the accused.
10 Q. And having been established, presided over by Mr. Andjelkovic with
11 you as a member, it had a range of functions, and you had a range of
12 functions. As well as humanitarian functions, you were involved in the
13 provincial civil protection staff, weren't you?
14 A. Yes. I was a member of three different staffs in Kosovo, and I
15 was a chairman or a president of one of the staffs. That was the staff
16 for humanitarian affairs.
17 Q. So as to the provincial civil protection staff, that was a staff
18 that, amongst other things, had some authority over Civil Defence, didn't
20 A. Yes, it did. But I believe that we never actually dealt with that
21 problem within the staff. It was formally within our purview, but we
22 never actually dealt with it.
23 Q. Because that would have given you some authority over people
24 exercising military or quasi-military functions, wouldn't it?
25 A. Mr. Nice, as far as the provincial staff of Civil Defence, I can
1 tell you that we never discussed any military units, nor did the staff
2 have anything to do with it. That was the job of the military department.
3 Q. Military department of the what, temporary Executive Council?
4 A. No. There was no military department in the provincial -- in the
5 provisional provincial council. We did not have such an organ.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... your term. Which military
7 department were you referring to, please?
8 A. I meant the military department which was part of the army that
9 recruited conscripts.
10 Q. The army and military department seem rather different terms
11 maybe. Who was the representative of the army in Kosovo during your
12 period of time as member of the provisional Executive Council?
13 A. The representative of the army in the provincial council, in the
14 provisional provincial council? I don't know that such a job existed.
15 The provisional provincial council dealt only with civilian issues of
16 everyday life. We had no influence whatsoever --
17 Q. Who dealt with military matters in Kosovo during your period on
18 the council? Who was the general in charge?
19 A. As far as I remember, if I'm not mistaken, there was the Pristina
20 Corps at the time, and the commander of that corps, if I'm not mistaken
21 again, was General Pavkovic.
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I'm not sure about this.
24 Q. General Pavkovic, he was one of the members of another body called
25 the Joint Command, wasn't he?
1 A. I don't know what Joint Command you're talking about.
2 Q. Despite being in Kosovo throughout the bombing campaign to which
3 the Yugoslav army had to respond, are you telling us that you weren't
4 aware of the body that commanded the army? Perhaps I've got the name
6 A. I can tell you from my general knowledge who could have been in
7 command of the army. I suppose the commander of the army of Yugoslavia.
8 I'm not an expert in military matters.
9 Q. You were a leading politician of the body that was now the public
10 face of the administration of government in Kosovo. Kosovo faces NATO,
11 and the army has much to do. Can you really not help us, Mr. Andric, with
12 how it was, which was the body, which was the staff that ran the army?
13 Can you really not help us?
14 A. Mr. Nice, I thank you for having such a high opinion of me as a
15 politician. I'm afraid I am falling short of it. In any case, I can tell
16 you quite honestly that I don't know who could have been in charge of the
17 army if it wasn't the General Staff of the army of Yugoslavia.
18 As for the provisional provincial council, I can assure you that
19 we never ever discussed any military matters unless you mean the staff for
20 the coordination of activities between civilian authorities and the
21 Ministry of the Interior. That was my only contact with military
22 personnel during the war. If that's what you mean, this coordination
23 body, then that coordination body existed and it was active every day.
24 Q. What military representation was there on that body?
25 A. On that coordination staff there were two colonels; Colonel
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Stefanovic, Milomir Stefanovic, and Colonel Petkovic, if I'm not mistaken.
2 Q. What building was your council housed in?
3 A. Our council was housed in the building of the provincial Executive
4 Council on the high street.
5 Q. On the high street. Did any other body inhabit that same
7 A. You mean the building of the provisional provincial council. At
8 that time, one wing of the building held two or three sections of the
9 Ministry of Interior, but that was in the period when Albanians refused to
10 take part in the official life of Kosovo and Metohija.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Council probably later.
12 Shall we look together, please, at some of your exhibits. Will you open
13 the file at tab 1.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the Serbian interpretation, what
17 Mr. Nice is saying is interpreted with the word "veca," and that word has
18 many meanings, so the witness may be confused. If what they mean is
19 provincial council, that is provincial government, it has to be clearly
20 said, because "veca" has many different meanings. It means deliberation,
21 it means review, it means board, it means what -- many things.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for the clarification, Mr. Milosevic.
23 MR. NICE:
24 Q. Tab 1 is an example of the material that came to us one week ago
25 and that we have to deal with or, alternatively, not to deal with. You're
1 a scientific man. This is a piece of paper that tells us what? First of
2 all, who prepared it?
3 A. This document was drafted by the services of the provincial
4 secretariat for health care.
5 Q. They're not identified as the preparers on the document that I
6 have. Does it tell us to which original material they turned for this
8 A. No, it doesn't.
9 Q. The documents come without any annex of original material for me
10 to check, and you have not checked the figures yourself, have you, against
11 original material? Have you?
12 A. Mr. Nice, I have no reason not to believe my own technical
13 services. If I disbelieved them, then I would have to check every
14 document they make against original sources and that would be impossible.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... important in all careful
16 deliberations, whether scientific or forensic, and you will understand
17 that I'm in no position to accept or reject the material you present on a
18 single piece of paper with no supporting documentation or even
19 identification of what the supporting documentation is.
20 Shall we look at tab 2? Again a piece of paper prepared by staff
21 of yours; is that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Didn't check the figures yourself, no annex for me, no
24 identification of the material that was relied on. Yes?
25 A. I trust my staff, and what you are saying is absolutely
1 impossible. If we were to proceed the way you suggest, then it would be
2 impossible for us to work at all.
3 These figures were derived from the documents available in the
4 health care organisations of Kosovo and Metohija, and they represent
5 reality. They are absolutely accurate.
6 Q. Let's go to tab 3, please. Perhaps if Ms. Dicklich would help, or
7 somebody, we could just lay a copy of this on the overhead projector for
8 those viewing proceedings.
9 This is a document originally headed "List by Departments of
10 Teachers and Assistants of Medical Facilities [sic] in Pristina of
11 Albanian Nationalities who Remained on Posts in Pristina City Hospital
12 After," and it originally read 1999, but apparently that's an error and it
13 should read 1991.
14 A. Yes. It was an error after interpretation -- of the translation.
15 Q. Who prepared this list?
16 A. This list was drafted by heads of chairs, professors, my
17 colleagues, together with me, of course.
18 Q. We can't see who these professors and heads of chairs are, but we
19 can see quite a lot of names. Do we see on this list of names the people
20 who prepared the lists or are they not on the document?
21 A. No.
22 Q. There are some other people who prepared the lists?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, what it says is these are the people who remained in Pristina
25 city hospital, and we now know that the concern is --
1 JUDGE KWON: It says medical faculty.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are people who continued to
3 work in the clinics and the institutions of the medical school of the
4 Pristina University.
5 MR. NICE:
6 Q. Now, the significance of this so I can understand your evidence?
7 What's important about this, do you say?
8 A. The importance of this document, Mr. Nice, is that it shows that
9 those who wanted to and who performed their work properly were able to
10 continue working in the clinics and institutions of the medical school in
11 Pristina. No pressure was put on them unless it was pressure by other
12 Albanians who wanted them to leave their jobs there and go to work in
13 parallel Albanian institutions.
14 Q. Now, of course here we've got real names, haven't we, of real
15 professionals. And although sometimes they're marked as assistants, just
16 to deal with this, the assistants are themselves qualified doctors. Is
17 that right, first of all, assistants are qualified doctors?
18 A. Yes, they are medical doctors. All of them are medical doctors.
19 They only have different degrees, titles.
20 Q. In preparing this evidence to help this accused, knowing that you
21 were going to name these people and for inferences to be drawn from them,
22 did you contact them?
23 A. Of course I didn't.
24 Q. Why not?
25 A. I was not able to. I had no way of contacting them. Because,
1 Mr. Nice, in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija, I can only reach up to
2 north Mitrovica. Further than that, I cannot set foot.
3 Q. Did you write them?
4 A. I simply don't know where these people are any more. I lost all
5 touch with them five years ago.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... none of them remember you,
7 but if there was a serious point -- well, let me just cut to the point.
8 Given that we were provided with these names a week ago, you couldn't
9 complain, could you, if as many of them as possible were contacted to see
10 what they had to say about what you suggested. You couldn't complain
11 about that, could you?
12 A. Of course not.
13 Q. Now, of course until yesterday morning, our understanding, because
14 we had this little tiny summary about your evidence and just these
15 documents, was that the significance of this list was that it was about
16 doctors who remained in post after 1999, which is of course a significant
17 date. And if you cast your eye down, under the ophthalmology section, to
18 the second name, number 2, it's a woman's name, isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So at the time she was seen two days ago, the Prosecution was
21 justified in thinking that this was all about what happened to her in the
22 latter part of this period.
23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, with the Court's leave, we'll play the
24 beginning, in any event, of a video. And, Your Honour, we have --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may just say something,
1 Mr. Robinson.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, the witness said loud
4 and clear that this indication of 1999 is a typographical error. It
5 should read 1991. He corrected that mistake as soon as we opened this
6 document. So it is pointless to prove now that it is not actually 1999.
7 He said it himself yesterday. And the point here is that these are
8 people --
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. I'm not sure that this is what Mr. Nice
10 wants to do. Let us proceed, Mr. Nice.
11 MR. NICE: As Your Honours will understand, the period 1999 is all
12 part of the period post-1991. When we first saw this woman, or when she
13 was first seen, all we knew was that of interest was the 1999 period.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, it's just about time for the break, so
15 we can take the break now.
16 MR. NICE: Yes, of course.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Twenty minutes.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.40 p.m.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Nice.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.
22 MR. NICE: My apologies. Can we distribute the transcript. Your
23 Honour, this was an interview conducted in English and Albanian. For that
24 reason it would take a long time to play in full. In the short time
25 available since it was transmitted here, we've selected certain passages
1 to play in full, and they have been shadowed or shaded in the text, and
2 then with your leave, I'll go through what follows because I can deal with
3 it more quickly, and then we'll come to the next part to play.
4 So with Ms. Dicklich's assistance, we'll turn to the video.
5 MR. KAY: Can we just deal with this as a matter of law first of
6 all because it's a novel proposition that's being introduced into the
7 trial. What I understand is proposed by the Prosecution is that an
8 interview of the lady named as Meshqyre Capuni-Brestovci, which was taken
9 a few days ago, on the 22nd of February, be played as a tool of
10 cross-examination. It's a way of introducing evidence through that
11 witness in the form of a video recording which this witness will be asked,
12 or I hope, or to comment upon. Traditionally cross-examination is --
13 takes place in the form of questions by the advocate who puts his case and
14 then may call evidence in rebuttal or otherwise.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: This is a video recording that is reflected in
16 this document?
17 MR. KAY: Yes. And I think what's proposed to be played is that
18 this witness's -- well, she's not a witness. This person's interview,
19 which hasn't been a part of the evidence in any shape or form, is then
20 played and then this witness, who is the witness, be asked to comment on
21 what is played. It's no different from having a statement, say, from the
22 witness, that be put before the witness and them asked to comment upon it.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, what do you hope to achieve by this?
24 MR. NICE: I remain astonished by my learned friend Mr. Kay's
25 traditional approach to evidential problems that should not be confined to
1 national approaches. And before I answer Your Honour's point, we must
2 have in mind that this last -- this witness has been permitted to bring in
3 endless statements by other people, hearsay of the most general kind: "I
4 know that nobody was kicked out by anybody except the KLA" or whatever it
5 can be summarised as. Statements in video form from television reporters,
6 interviews with individuals. And what I'm proposing to do on a topic that
7 has been raised by this accused, not by us, with, as I have revealed,
8 minimum notice, is to put a case relating to one of the very people upon
9 whose actions he relies.
10 Now, yes, I can simply stand here and read out the contents of her
11 statement and say that's the truth, isn't it? But which is going to be
12 more helpful for the Tribunal, for me to do that or for the Tribunal to
13 see the witness speaking?
14 Let me say straight away, after this I do have another statement,
15 at the moment in written form, for reasons entirely outside my control and
16 a result of the conduct of the Defence which I shall also be seeking to
17 lay before you, and I'll explain that when the time comes. But really, to
18 say that these statements are not valuable or shouldn't be admitted would
19 be to be applying entirely different standards for the Prosecution than
20 for the Defence.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of course you cannot enlarge your case, and I'm
22 concerned as to whether this is what you're doing.
23 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: You can put it if you're seeking to test the
25 credibility of the witness or to contradict the witness.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, in answer to the first point, I'm not
2 actually sure about that. If the defendant or the accused chooses to
3 raise another issue which could fall -- I'm mean, I'm not sure that it
4 falls to anything except background at the moment, but if he raises an
5 issue that could form part of the case and he chooses to do so, and
6 Defence evidence can always be part of a Prosecution case --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Of course. You can seek to contradict anything
8 that he raises or to test the credibility of the witness on any point that
9 he raises, but apart from that, you can't enlarge your case. But I
10 certainly am of the view that you are entitled to put to the witness
11 something which serves to contradict the evidence of the accused's witness
12 or to test his credibility.
13 And what is it that you're seeking to do here?
14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I asked the witness what is the
15 significance about the evidence he's given about these people whose names
16 he listed as being present since 1991 and thus, of course, through 1999,
17 and he gave his answer. We now need to know what the position of those
18 witnesses would be. He didn't make any efforts to contact them. This is
19 an inquiry into the truth, and for the Chamber to be -- with proof. But
20 for the Chamber to be invited to draw extraordinarily wide inferences by
21 the generalised evidence of this witness whose partiality is something to
22 which I will turn and thus whose credibility is in issue would be quite
24 JUDGE KWON: I'm concerned about some consistency in our practice.
25 I remember that we didn't allow the accused to put some comments of a
1 third party on the witness's evidence of previous day.
2 MR. NICE: I can't immediately recall what Your Honour has in
3 mind, but this is not -- I remember what Your Honour has in mind. This is
4 witnesses commenting on evidence. Yes, we had a couple of occasions of
5 that and Judge May said call the witness. Well, that was -- it's the same
6 point we've raised before. It is one thing for the Prosecution case where
7 a Defence case is certain. It is entirely different for a Defence case
8 when the prospects of a rebuttal case are uncertain. It's entirely
9 different for an issue that's been raised by this accused afresh and
10 without notice. I've made complaints before, and I'm going to repeat
11 them, about the complete inadequacy for the forensic process of these 65
12 ter summaries with which I am supposed to work, and I have to make it
13 quite plain that it is becoming increasingly difficult for the Prosecution
14 to serve this Chamber properly when it is presented with a mass of
15 material at short notice with which we have to deal in a confined period
16 of time.
17 Now, here we have the clearest possible example, and let me
18 explain exactly what this witness says on her tape so there can be no
19 doubt about it for the purposes of the record.
20 She says that on the 24th of March, 1999, the situation was tense.
21 People were afraid. When she tried to go to work in a neighbourhood
22 that's a bit -- she lives a bit further away, she heard a bullet. She
23 wasn't conscious of what was happening. She was advised to go home and
24 did so. She notified the director of the hospital what the problem was,
25 and he said, "I will give you -- he said, "I'll give you a document" which
1 would assist her. She then used that document, and on the 31st of March,
2 when she came back again after a time away, her neighbourhood was
3 completely surrounded by concentrations of police forces who told us that
4 -- told them that they had to leave their homes.
5 So those were the particular circumstances of the 24th of March.
6 If you go down to clip 2, she didn't want -- she went back to her sister's
7 she didn't want to make the circumstances even worse and decided to go to
8 the Macedonian border, were directed towards Tetovo and towards Globocica
9 and went in that direction. They spent seven days at the border which was
10 opened sometimes and was being closed again in conditions that were cruel.
11 If you turn over to the third clip, she went back home. She
12 stayed at home for ten days, not daring to go out because of
13 concentrations of troops in the area, looked out of the windows and
14 eventually decided to go out on her own, believing that the document she
15 had with her would save her - that's the document from the hospital
16 director. She went to her sister's, she then went to the hospital to get
17 her salary, and was then refused to work at the hospital. So that for
18 circumstances entirely outside her control and despite even having the
19 advantage of some laissez-passer by the director of the hospital, she was
20 denied the opportunity to work, whether under some technical failure to
21 turn up for a week or otherwise.
22 Clip 4: She was asked a question were you aware or are
23 subsequently aware of colleagues that practised, any Albanian colleagues
24 that practised at Pristina hospital during this period of time you
25 covered, and she said I didn't know anything. We'd also one week off at
1 the time so I didn't know and I had no way of knowing. But afterwards I
2 found out at the border that people had gone to Skopje and Macedonia. And
3 actually there were two of my colleagues who were there with me at the
4 border. We met them. We didn't go there. We met at the border.
5 And finally she said, clip 5 - there's a lot of other stuff in
6 between - Did you go back to work at the hospital? I was immediately
7 after the NATO forces entered and I don't remember the date.
8 Now, with Your Honours' leave, I'm going to distribute another
9 document because in my --
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you say that goes to? What issue raised
11 by --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. NICE: The history --
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Sorry. My mike wasn't on. I'm asking you what
15 issue does that go to?
16 MR. NICE: Firstly, this was premised on the document that hadn't
17 been corrected two days before, and so we thought that the accused was
18 interested in presenting evidence of what was the reality for Albanian
19 doctors staying on in March 1999, and the reality for this Albanian
20 doctor, the only one that was possible to identify out of the list he's
21 relied upon, is that despite all efforts and because of what was happening
22 to her and in the surrounding area, she couldn't get back to work and was
23 forbidden from working by the director of that hospital. So that's
24 extremely important.
25 But, Your Honour, what happened was the -- and perhaps we can
1 distribute the Pallaska statement, please. But what happened was when the
2 correction was made to tab whatever it is, 3, and 1999 was converted to
3 1991, I gave instructions and we attempted to return to the same woman to
4 ask the questions about the period of 1991 on. It wasn't possible to find
5 her again in the short period of time because then it was hoped that this
6 evidence might finish today, but it was possible to find another doctor
7 who had -- not one of the ones on the list. It doesn't matter. A doctor
8 who had been present since 1991 and had carried on working. So with that
9 doctor and with this doctor we have some account for a topic raised by
10 this accused which he need never have raised, he's chosen to do so,
11 dealing with what happened to this doctor in the period 1991 onwards.
12 Your Honours, so this statement again, and I repeat, having no
13 detail -- let me just pause for a minute because it's time I made this
14 point again for the sake of the record and so that the Prosecution's
15 position can be well understood: The accused, when he came to deal with
16 witnesses not only had been served witness statements in great detail
17 months in advance, notified usually weeks in advance that witnesses were
18 coming, but he was provided with summaries of the precise evidence the
19 witness was going to give and was also provided, as on this occasion we
20 were a week ago, with the precise exhibits that --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I don't wish to hear you any more on
22 that issue.
23 MR. NICE: Very well.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: The Trial Chamber has ruled on it. In my view
25 the relationship between the Prosecutor and the accused is not a
1 symmetrical one, it's asymmetrical. The Prosecutor has burdens and duties
2 which the accused does not have. The accused has rights which the
3 Prosecutor does not have.
4 MR. NICE: As Your Honour pleases, but that imposes on me the duty
5 to do everything I can to meet things that arise by way of therefore
6 justifiable surprise. This doctor then, and we can see it on page 2 of
7 the document, says he was practising in the hospital in 1989 and was one
8 of the doctors that was not removed from his post. He was unaware of any
9 Albanian doctors that left service at Pristina from 1989 onwards with the
10 specific intention of setting up in private practice. He deals with the
11 particular circumstances of his father who did leave and set up private
12 practice. He says, "I am unaware of any doctors that left service at
13 Pristina hospital after 1989 through to 1998 without being dismissed by
14 the hospital."
15 Next paragraph, or next heading he says this, and this is
16 specifically contrary to something that this witness has dealt with and I
17 will be asking him about it. He sets out the reasons for doctors being
18 dismissed from service, perhaps because they completed medical forms in
19 the Albanian language, not in Serbian and other reasons are given.
20 Next paragraph. He deals with the sanctions that would be imposed
21 on Albanian doctors speaking to Albanian patients other than in the
22 Serbian language. He then explains the history of doctors being dismissed
23 in late 1990 --
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, thank you. I just want to ask Mr. Kay,
25 why shouldn't the Prosecutor in cross-examination be entitled to put to a
1 witness for the Defence a document which, on the basis of answers that he
2 might receive from the witness, could serve to contradict the evidence of
3 that witness or to throw some doubt on his credibility?
4 MR. KAY: Yes. It's cross-examination. These are
5 cross-examination materials for the Prosecutor. They're not evidence.
6 Let's start, first of all, with the video. A videotape of this
7 woman is played. The accused doesn't have an opportunity to cross-examine
8 the witness in the videotape, so you hear her account. He's asked
9 questions, "Well, what do you think of that? You heard her say there
10 that." She is being used --
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Does that all go to weight, the weight that is
13 MR. KAY: It doesn't go to weight. His evidence is the important
14 issue here. That video clip is being used as a means of putting a witness
15 into the Defence case, a very familiar tactic that we've had continuously
16 throughout the Defence and that the accused was restrained from doing. He
17 was told, "Your time will come when you can call evidence."
18 Mr. Nice's case will have another section to it in a rebuttal
19 case. He says, "I don't know whether I'll have a rebuttal case." That
20 plainly is unrealistic, and I believe a few days ago Your Honour said to
21 him, what are you saying you're not going to get a chance of a rebuttal
22 case? If this is being done as a means of -- because he's not going to
23 get a rebuttal case, we don't accept that at all.
24 What is being done through the video is a way of putting evidence
25 into the Court that he, the accused, is unable to deal with by the means
1 of the cross-examination. All counsel -- and it's a difficult job being
2 an advocate, and I'll echo the words there of my learned friend to me once
3 -- it's a difficult job being counsel. You have to sometimes ask
4 questions, you have to deal with what you have, and then you deal with it
5 in a proper, admissible form whereby the evidence can be properly tested.
6 Otherwise, Your Honours are being subjected to materials in a
7 technological form that are being used to advance the Prosecution case in
8 a way that it becomes their case. What they should be doing is
9 challenging through the advocate, through putting questions, this
10 particular witness's account, and then if they disagree with this
11 witness's account, calling evidence to rebut it. And that is a procedure
12 recognised within the Rules.
13 The witness statement, as he has cross-examined other witnesses
14 before, he will have had materials. He puts to this witness from the
15 materials he has to hand the questions he seeks to ask to test the
16 evidence. The statement may come in in his rebuttal case as evidence,
17 through Rule 92 bis, or it may be through calling the witness live.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: The fact that he can adduce it in rebuttal
19 doesn't necessarily mean that he can't adduce it in cross-examination.
20 MR. KAY: And I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is he should
21 put questions. Mr. Milosevic was told to put questions and not make
22 statements. This is no different from Mr. Nice making a statement on the
23 strength of his case. It's no different from that, Your Honour. It's
24 exactly what is going on in a much more subtle form and through the video
25 using a technological aid, but it's actually making a statement of his
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 case during the questioning of a witness.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's not a statement of his case. He's
3 using it to contradict the case that Mr. Milosevic is putting forward,
4 that all Albanian doctors were able to work without any kind of
5 molestation. Why shouldn't he be able to contradict that evidence in
7 MR. KAY: He is by asking the questions. That is the function of
8 it. And the materials he may produce in rebuttal.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Only in rebuttal.
10 MR. KAY: He is using -- he is using it as his case rather than
11 contradiction. He's already said that to you. He has given the reasoning
12 behind it, saying he has evidence here relating to a different state of
13 affairs in 1999. He wishes, in the interests of, as he sees it, putting
14 the truth before the Court, to make sure the Court has that material now.
15 So it's not a process of contradiction --
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't accept that characterisation by Mr. Nice.
17 I think it is essentially evidence which contradicts may test the
18 credibility, and if that has the incidental effect of becoming part of the
19 Prosecution case, that's an incidental effect. But don't you deprive
20 cross-examination of its essential sting if you prevent the cross-examiner
21 from putting a document to a witness which may serve to contradict what he
22 says? Isn't that the whole purpose of cross-examination?
23 MR. KAY: We could break it down further. In these proceedings he
24 could put a document. It's then what happens to the document. If he
25 plays the video, he's just playing the content from the witness and that
1 witness's statement. He's not doing the job of challenging the witness.
2 He's doing it through the statements being made in the video.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: But the witness can comment on it.
4 MR. KAY: It is evidence that is being introduced by the
5 Prosecution in a form that is for the truth of the statement rather than
6 to challenge this witness. The accused is unable himself to cross-examine
7 the person who is being used in the video.
8 JUDGE KWON: You are not opposing to putting the material to the
10 MR. KAY: No.
11 JUDGE KWON: What you are opposing is playing the video.
12 MR. KAY: Yes. I could see that this could come to --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for Mr. Kay,
15 MR. KAY: I can see it becoming a coach and horses and I have had
16 experience in the trial how one ruling then enables the Prosecution to
17 open up a particular advance front and through it produce a great deal of
18 materials, and I suspect that is behind this here, that once it is done,
19 it then becomes the commonplace.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have to consider it.
21 MR. NICE: Can I make -- can I reply, just two or three points,
22 because it's absolutely essential that the fallacy and limitation of that
23 last argument is laid bare.
24 My learned friend, throughout the evidence of this witness, kept
25 reminding the Chamber to admit tabs 5.2, tab 5.3, tab 5.4. As a friend of
1 the Court, he should have been, on his latest argument, saying you can't
2 admit these because these are actually being adduced for the truth of
3 their content. He should have been saying Mr. Nice can't cross-examine
4 this man in the leather hat. It so happens, that as we go through the
5 tabs we'll find that eventually there comes a time when one of these
6 witnesses was named, and you can be quite sure I've been and I've made
7 every effort to speak to the named witnesses, because that was an
8 appropriate course, but what he's arguing is completely inconsistent with
9 the position he's taken. And I must respectfully remind the Chamber that
10 there have been, from the Defence side, innumerable documents, newspaper
11 articles and all sorts of things admitted in on various bases but plainly
12 the ultimate purpose of which is to have the truth of their content.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: What do you say of his remark that in the
14 Prosecution case Mr. Milosevic was told time and again -- was prevented
15 time and again from introducing evidence of that kind and told that he
16 should wait his turn?
17 MR. NICE: I've already dealt with that point on several
18 occasions, now and in the past, and of course if the Chamber decides that
19 the position has to be varied or adjusted because of the state of the
20 trial we're in, so be it, but the --
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's better to be correct than consistent.
22 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour could put it like that, yes. But the
23 suggestion also that somehow we have to go through the extraordinarily
24 artificial exercise of my converting into reported speech what is
25 available to you in a better form is nonsense. We're going to come to an
1 example, for example, with one or two of the people that this witness has
2 spoken of, if we get the time, as having said things favourable, or by
3 implication favourable. Now, those people have made contradictory
4 statements in the public format; newspapers, press reports, whatever else
5 it is. Am I entitled to put those statements or do I have to stand here,
6 as Mr. Kay would say, and say, Isn't it right in relation to international
7 personality Mr. X that the position was this not that? No. You say this
8 is what Mr. X said. What's your comment on that? That's the way we've
9 been proceeding throughout.
10 And although the accused may have been subject to some limitations
11 on putting in witness statements when they weren't related to evidence
12 before the Chamber, that's different, you may think, from the present
13 position where the evidence is here and we've got another statement by the
14 same person to a contrary effect.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Milosevic, you wanted to say something? I
16 was asking if you wanted to say something.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, Mr. Robinson. I did hear
18 you. I was waiting for the interpretation to finish, because the
19 interpretation was still coming through my headphones.
20 I only wish to draw your attention to one single reason why this
21 transcript and video clip that Mr. Nice has now provided cannot be
22 compared to tab 5 in which I provided video clips to accompany the
23 examination of this witness. There is a difference here. In those clips,
24 you were able to see the witness. The witness was present at those
25 events. Those statements were made in his presence together with other
1 members of the provincial -- provisional provincial Executive Council;
2 Ibrahimi, Jashari, and the third one. They were there and they could hear
3 what those people were saying. They were talking to them. So this is a
4 completely different situation from a situation in which a video clip of
5 something a doctor said on the 24th of March, 1999, is portrayed, and this
6 allegedly refers to the document provided by this witness. However, it is
7 very clearly stated that this document provided by the witness relates to
8 1991 and not 1999. These are two completely different things.
9 Tab 5 does not contain hearsay evidence. This is evidence at
10 which the witness was present.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, coming from the jurisdiction from which
12 you do, I think you would appreciate that point. The presence of the
13 witness in the interviews does make a difference.
14 MR. NICE: I didn't understand the point of the accused.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: He was saying that the essential difference
16 between his videos and the one that you're now seeking to present is that
17 in his videos, the witness was ever present.
18 MR. NICE: Well, yes and no. The videos -- and this is another
19 serious problem that we're going to have to encounter, as you'll see from
20 the third document that I'm going to present to you at a later stage
21 unless something happens which I'll turn to in a second. They're not
22 present in the sense of present when they're being expelled from their
23 houses. They're not present when the bombs are dropping. They're
24 present, being interviewed, after the event by reporters. The only
25 difference here is that they're being interviewed after the event by an
1 investigator. There is no difference of class at all.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: He's saying that the witness himself was
3 present --
4 MR. NICE: I see.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness himself, so questions could be put to
6 the witness.
7 MR. NICE: He was only present at some, very few. And at the
8 moment we've got no evidence of his being the interlocutor or the
9 interviewer of any of the people who give their particular accounts. He's
10 given a generalised account. If we go through these clips and look at the
11 various individuals, they're being spoken to by journalists, not by him,
12 and there's no evidence that he was present save on a limited number of
14 And can I explain why I said I'll reach the third position or the
15 third piece of material that I want to lay before you of this general kind
16 soon, unless something happens. The thing that would happen is this: If
17 there is to be any question of excision of material of this kind, my next
18 application will be to remove all of the hearsay evidence from this
19 witness's evidence, which would take out all the tabs, because --
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: If it were -- if it were agreed to by the Trial
22 MR. NICE: Yes, I know. But that would be my application, because
23 there are simply different standards being applied.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the essential difficulty that we have
25 here, and it's a jurisprudential one, is the mixing of the civil law
1 flexible system with more strict conditions of admissibility from the
2 common law system, and until we resolve that we're always going to face
3 this issue. 89(C) sends us down the civil law flexible route. But Mr.
4 Kay makes points which, in my view, are more drawn from the common law
5 system, objecting to admissibility. But I'm going now to consult my
6 colleague on this question.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The ruling is that you can put the statements but
9 not the videos, and the admission of the statements will depend on the
10 answers given by the witness.
11 MR. NICE: Can we have before the witness on the overhead
12 projector, please, the statement of Meshqyre Capuni-Brestovci. Put it on
13 the overhead projector and I'm going to read it.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: He has the statement before him.
15 JUDGE KWON: Whose statement is it, Mr. Nice?
16 MR. NICE: The statement is the statement of Meshqyre Capuni, and
17 it is, unfortunately, in English in light of the brevity of time, and I'm
18 going to read passages of it to this witness and ask him whether he
19 accepts that this can be true.
20 Q. Dr. Andric, this woman whose name you relied on said, amongst
21 other things, the following: That on the 24th of March of 1999, all her
22 colleagues were working. She's in the hospital. The situation was tense,
23 and everyone was afraid after finishing their normal working hours so they
24 went home so that they could go back to work the next day.
25 Any reason to doubt that?
1 MR. NICE: Mr. Nice, just a minute, please.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, proceed.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness provided under tab 3 the
7 list of doctors who remained working after 1991, and I see that under
8 number 2, we have the name of this person, and next to her name it says
9 that she was a lecturer. The witness explained that the list was drawn by
10 the chairs of departments and that this person remained working up to
11 1991. So what would the statement of this woman about what happened in
12 1999 have to do with the evidence given by this witness? In tab 3, the
13 witness claims and provided a list of the doctors who worked after 1991.
14 Now, what Mr. Nice is saying now, does it contradict in any way
15 what this witness told us earlier?
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice. Mr. Nice, look at page 2 under "JS".
17 It says, "I could ask you to take it from there in your own words. Would
18 you just explain your experiences from the 24th of March, 1999." And
19 Mr. Milosevic is asking how that will help us in relation to the
20 experiences in 1991 relating to her work.
21 MR. NICE: It helps because this witness has given a general
22 account of the freedom of Albanian doctors to work at all periods of time
23 starting in 1991 and onwards.
24 Your Honour, in fact before we come to that, and I'm going to
25 interrupt the flow of my questions because it occurs to me in light of the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Court's ruling that I must now apply that all the videotape evidence under
2 tabs 5 and onwards, save for the limited passages that actually show this
3 witness, that they all be now ruled as inadmissible for the reasons
4 advanced by Mr. Kay in his argument if it is for those reasons that the
5 Chamber is denying me the opportunity to play this video.
6 If we're going to achieve consistency, then now is the time to
7 start. And if there is to be a general rule that a videotape of what
8 somebody says in answer to interview questions is inadmissible even though
9 it's on a relevant topic, then it's my duty to try to achieve consistency
10 now, which I do. I haven't, of course, gone through, I'm afraid, all of
11 the tabs with a view to checking exactly which ones would remain
12 admissible even if my argument succeeds --
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: I don't want to deal with that now. I note the
14 application you have made. Just move on with the examination.
15 MR. NICE: Very well. Well, then, my -- and obviously this
16 evidence will be being dealt with, as it were, subject to the resolution
17 of that application.
18 The --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, perhaps I failed to
20 understand, but where does the difference lie between reading the
21 transcript of a videotape and playing a videotape? Why would you allow
22 the transcript to be read and not allow the videotape? Let us play the
24 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, it is his case. I've said this
25 before: If he wants it played, let's play it. It will be much quicker.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. This is not my case. However,
2 Mr. Nice insists upon the tape being played, and he takes it as a reason
3 for challenging other exhibits. I don't mind him playing any tape he
4 wants to play. However, that's his motion, not mine.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: The tape can be played on the basis that there is
6 no objection from the accused.
7 MR. NICE: I'm very grateful. If we can just play the --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, for the record, I want to
9 be sure that it is recorded that this conversation was conducted on the
10 22nd of February, 2005, this interview. This is stated on the transcript.
11 I'm not sure whether it is obvious on the tape as well.
12 MR. NICE: Play the first part of it, then.
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The situation was tense. And after
15 finishing the working hours we went home so we could go back to work the
16 next day. The next day, when I tried to go to work, I lived in
17 neighbourhood that is a bit further away, in Velania, and I was walking on
18 the road from my house to go to work and I heard a bullet pass over my
19 head. And I was -- I wasn't even conscious of what was happening but a
20 neighbour told me to -- to move away from that place. And I went home,
21 and after some time had passed, around midday I tried to go to work again.
22 It was Friday. And I -- I notified the director, of the hospital, that
23 is, of what the problem was and he said I'll give you document, and he
24 said that he would give -- he would give me a document which would allow
25 me to walk through the city and to go to work and because a colleague of
1 mine had already asked for a document. And I -- on Saturday or Sunday, a
2 friend of mine called me and she said that the director had given
3 permission for us to miss the following week, and so we didn't have to go
4 and work.
5 "Then the 31st -- then the 31st of March came when our
6 neighbourhood was completely surrounded by large concentrations of police
7 forces. And then they expelled us. They told us that we had to leave our
8 homes in five minutes, within five minutes."
9 MR. NICE:
10 Q. Now, pausing there, Dr. Andric, page 80 of the yesterday's
11 transcript, you were the provisional or you were the secretary of health.
12 Any reason to doubt a word of what you've just heard?
13 A. Before I answer that question, Mr. Nice, I have to tell you that
14 when you previously addressed His Honour Robinson, you said that I had
15 said that this was a document showing Albanian professors and doctors
16 working in clinics between 1991 and 1999. I never said that, and that is
17 not true.
18 This document reflects the doctors, professors, and associates of
19 the medical school who remained working in 1991 in various clinics and
20 institutes. Now, whether they remained working until 1999 or 1992 is not
21 something that I ever went into, nor is it relevant for this document.
22 The purpose of this document was to show that all those who wanted to
23 stay --
24 Q. Please listen to the question. We've gone through the history of
25 the error in the document that was presented on your behalf, and it was
1 the error of that document that led to the bifurcated interviewing of two
2 different doctors which we're going to examine.
3 My question to you is quite simple and it arises as relevant
4 because as provisional secretary of health, as you've told us on page 80
5 of the transcript, you made it clear that - and I quote - you issued an
6 order addressed to the heads of all health institutions in Kosovo and
7 Metohija to ensure that health professionals continued in their work. And
8 we're going so see what happened to this health professional. I want to
9 break it down. In the first part that you've heard, is there any reason
10 to doubt a word of what she says?
11 A. I have equal reasons to doubt as to believe, because I know what
12 the official position was.
13 Q. I'm sorry. This woman is a doctor. Doesn't make her into a
14 different category. She's been prepared to make a statement. You tell
15 us, please, is there any reason to doubt what you've seen? Do you
16 actually have any material, any evidence? You've given the most general
17 sweeping statements today. Any hard reason to doubt what you've heard?
18 A. I just told you, Mr. Nice, why there could be reasons to doubt.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson, my microphone was not
20 turned on, so -- rather, the witness's microphone was not turned on so I
21 didn't hear his entire answer. His microphone was not turned on.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that it is on now.
23 MR. NICE: If the Chamber would be good enough to look at the text
24 just before clip 2, you will see that in the statement the witness
25 explains how at her sister's address she was told -- where they pretended
1 to be Turks, she was told by visiting soldiers that if there were any
2 Albanians, they shouldn't make the mistake of staying there.
3 Can we now play clip 2, please.
4 We are apparently technically stuck.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there a problem?
6 MR. NICE: I know that with the best will in the world, and all
7 the preparation sometimes this system doesn't always work immediately.
8 It's certainly not Ms. Dicklich's fault, or anybody else's, it's just one
9 of those things. What I'll, I think, is I'll read the next extract.
10 Q. The next extract from this tape, Dr. Andric, reads as follows:
11 The woman says: "Since we did not want to make my situation -- my
12 sister's situation any more difficult, we decided to go to the Macedonian
13 border. The police directed us towards Tetovo, towards Globocica, and we
14 went in that direction. We spent seven days on the border. The border
15 was opened at some times and closed again and the conditions were very
16 cruel. Very few people managed to cross the border. Mostly it was those
17 people who managed to give some money to the soldiers and the policemen.
18 On the eighth day, some soldiers passed by our convoy and they
19 said, You can now go back because Milosevic has said that you can go."
20 Now, any reason to doubt that a doctor, an educated professional
21 person, could be moving out of town and in the circumstances described?
22 A. I also spoke about them leaving and going towards Albania and
23 Macedonia. So that is not in dispute. However, the reasons for departure
24 differ in my version and what they're saying.
25 Q. In this -- you see, the general --
1 A. And we have to know the real reasons.
2 Q. The reason given by this woman was that, visited by the police or
3 soldiers disguising themselves as Turks, they were told that if there were
4 any Albanians, they shouldn't be there when the troops from Belgrade come.
5 You were the member of the provisional council. As we're going to
6 see, you had contact with the military. Tell us, is that account
7 something that could have been true?
8 A. Mr. Nice, perhaps it could be true. I told you previously there
9 were individual cases. However, that was not the rule. The fact that
10 this colleague of mine said that the policemen directed her to Globocica
11 is something that I can explain. It was clear why that happened. There
12 was a lot of crowd in the area of Djeneral Jankovic leading to Macedonia.
13 They wanted to go to Macedonia, and the only other border crossing leading
14 to go Macedonia was Globocica. This is why the police was directing them
15 there. The police wasn't forcing people to leave. On the contrary, they
16 were trying to make them return to their homes. However, they, of course,
17 were entitled to leave if they wanted to.
18 Q. Mr. Andric, it's the first bit as well. You said some individuals
19 acted. What do you say as to the possibility of people being warned to
20 get out if Albanians because the troops from Belgrade were coming? What
21 do you say to that as a possibility?
22 MR. KAY: He can't deal with that, can he?
23 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. He has given the most general
24 explanation --
25 MR. KAY: Excuse me. He cannot deal with that because how on
1 earth can he know what's in the mind even if --
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Rephrase your question, Mr. Nice.
3 MR. KAY: Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand the objection of
7 Mr. Kay. I don't understand why the witness should not be allowed to
8 answer this. This is a caricature. This is ludicrous. The army from
9 Belgrade is coming. Why wouldn't the witness be allowed to reply to this?
10 He was a public official there, so he knew the circumstances. Why
11 wouldn't he be allowed to comment?
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: I've instructed Mr. Nice to rephrase the
14 MR. NICE: I shall do no more and no less than adopt the words of
15 the accused.
16 Q. Help us: Is there any reason to doubt that which is said by this
17 witness about the army coming from Belgrade? Any reason known to you?
18 A. Before I answer, let me tell you something about the individual
19 cases that I mentioned earlier. Just to make it clear, I personally did
20 not see for myself any of such individual cases. I only heard about them.
21 As for the army from Belgrade, I don't know what they mean. The
22 army of Yugoslavia is entitled to be in the entire territory of the
23 country, and this claim here that the army from Belgrade is coming is pure
24 propaganda. This was a statement given for propaganda purposes.
25 Q. But you see -- I'll come back to complete what I want to ask about
1 this witness statement in a second. You told us earlier on when I asked
2 you about the provisional Executive Council, of how you had nothing to do
3 with the military; is that right?
4 A. No, I didn't say that I had nothing to do with the army. I was
5 member of the provisional staff for coordinating between civilian
6 authorities, MUP, and the army, Mr. Nice.
7 Q. We'll get the precise words for next week, but just tell the
8 Court, please - because I expect you can remember - what you were doing at
9 2.00 on the 24th of March of 1999 and who was present at the meeting you
10 were at then.
11 A. On the 24th at 2.00 -- do you mean 2.00 p.m. or 2.00 a.m.?
12 Q. 2.00 p.m.
13 A. 2.00 p.m. Yes, I remember the meeting.
14 Q. Yes. Now please tell us who was present at it.
15 A. I think that there were several officers of the army.
16 Q. Yes. And when we're talking about officers, we're not talking
17 about the junior ranks, are we? We are talking about you and your
18 Executive Council being in a meeting with Nebojsa Pavkovic, Major General;
19 Vladimir Lazarevic, commander of the Pristina Corps; Major General Sreten
20 Lukic of the MUP; and Lieutenant General Obrad Stevanovic, chief of the
21 Kosovo and Metohija district. Exhibit 319, tab 33.
22 When I ask you the question is it possible that this woman, not so
23 very many days after that meeting, could have been warned of the arrival
24 of troops from Belgrade, may what she says have been true?
25 A. No.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Well, let's look at the rest of her --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not malicious at all, but I have
5 to say that I do not understand the question. Based on the transcript, it
6 is clear that this woman describes the 24th of March, 1999.
7 There's interference. We can hear the tape being played.
8 And the question put to the witness had to do with a meeting held
9 on the 24th of March, 1999. This is what the witness is being asked.
10 Therefore, I don't understand this question, could she have been right,
11 because this involves the same day, the same date. And Mr. Nice also
12 referred to an exhibit. We would like to see that exhibit, the witness as
13 well. I can't know what the exhibit is just based on the number.
14 MR. NICE: May I, without responding to the accused, assist him in
15 this way through the witness.
16 Q. Dr. Andric, on the 24th of March, you were in a meeting with the
17 top military officers, and my suggestion to you is that you knew full well
18 what the military plans were on that day and probably from that day
19 onwards. True or false?
20 A. No, I don't remember the details of that meeting.
21 Q. Let me move to clip 3 in order to complete this -- I gather that
22 the Sanction -- this may be clip 3. We've had a bit of a problem with
23 Sanction, I'm afraid.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: But you were -- Professor, you were at the
25 meeting with the senior military officials?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember it was on the 24th, or
2 maybe some other day around the 24th, but I can't remember even whether it
3 was before or after the beginning of the NATO aggression. I remember
4 there was a meeting. It was a very brief one, and I don't remember what
5 was discussed.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Robinson.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know if a word was omitted.
9 I had the impression it was about a brief meeting of the provisional
10 provincial government of Kosovo and Metohija. I think that should be
11 clear in the record, but I am yet waiting to receive this exhibit.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let's clarify it once and for all. What meeting
13 are you talking about in relation to the witness's presence?
14 MR. NICE: Indeed. The 15th session of the provisional Executive
15 Council of the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija, held at 2.00
16 p.m. on the 24th of March, chaired by Zoran Andjelkovic, including this
17 witness and various other members of the council. Absentees noted,
18 participants including, and then it went through a series of --
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: All right. Let's just have the witness listen to
20 that interpretation.
21 Is that the meeting at which you were present, Professor?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I'm not sure if it took
23 place before or after the 24th. I did attend that meeting, but I don't
24 remember the details of the meeting.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, yes.
1 MR. NICE: If we can just play this last clip 3 with
2 Ms. Dicklich's assistant.
3 [Videotape played]
4 "THE INTERPRETER: We stayed at home for about ten days. We
5 didn't dare go out at all because there were great concentrations of
6 troops in our neighbourhood and I believe that Hotel Dea that was next to
7 my house was actually some sort of headquarters for them but we didn't
8 dare go out, we just looked through the windows.
9 "In the end I decided to go out personally on my own believing
10 that maybe the document I had with me would save me. And I decided to go
11 first to my sister's to let them know that we were alive, that we were
12 doing okay, and then to my work to see how things were and maybe if I
13 could get my salary.
14 "When I went there, the director said -- he looked really sad and
15 said that he was sorry but we had lost our jobs because we had not
16 notified them that we wouldn't be working, and we couldn't get our salary
17 of the previous month."
18 MR. NICE: Thank you. I see the time. I'll abandon the last two
19 clips, with Your Honour's leave, if I can ask the one question.
20 Q. You were the provisional secretary -- or you were the secretary of
21 health. Here is a woman who, on her account, is disabled by reason of
22 circumstances at that time from going to work and she was then thrown out
23 of her job. Is what she says possibly true?
24 A. Mr. Nice, I really cannot comment upon an individual case so many
25 years after it happened. I really cannot say whether it was true or not.
1 That's one thing.
2 Second, when you were addressing the Trial Chamber --
3 Q. Can you just pause there for a minute. You said you can't comment
4 on an individual case. When giving answers to this accused and asked
5 whether your order for compliance with a particular order at this time for
6 continuity of medical facilities you said, "This order pertaining to the
7 management of health institutions was complied with fully." How were you
8 able to say that if you're not able to deal with individual cases?
9 A. You didn't understand me when I said that that order was complied
10 to the full. My order was to protect all health care staff, that they
11 should all stay in their workplace and possibly even bring their families
12 to hospitals and clinics if that was the safest option for them. And when
13 you asked them -- when you asked me whether it was done, I said yes. It
14 was done by the management. But it was not complied with by all the
15 health care staff. I told you that in Prizren, health care staff from
16 Prizren, Gnjilane, and other places left their workplaces. Only in
17 Djakovica did they all comply and did they stay at their workplaces.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: If you are ready to stop, we can stop, but we can
19 go for another five minutes since we are not -- there's no sitting in this
21 MR. NICE: Let me use the time.
22 Q. The -- as you understand, Doctor - no fault of yours - having
23 misunderstood -- not having -- having read the original format at tab 3 as
24 1999, and when we were corrected so that it became clear that it was in
25 fact 1991, efforts were made to contact a doctor who fitted the criteria
1 of the heading of tab 3. That is, a doctor or a member of the medical
2 facility in Pristina of Albanian nationality who remained in post after
3 1999. A Dr. Pallaska was found, and he was spoken to yesterday. I don't
4 know if you read English. Do you read English?
5 A. No, but I must tell you, you already mentioned Dr. Pallaska, and
6 you said, among other things, that he said in his statement that Albanian
7 doctors were penalized for talking in Albanian to Albanian patients. That
8 is a blatant lie. And if everything else he said is similar to that, then
9 we can throw it out the window straight away.
10 I spent all my career in Kosovo. I spoke to Albanians in the
11 Albanian language all the time, and 95 per cent of my patients were
12 Albanians, and the same was done by all my Serb colleagues.
13 Q. On all --
14 A. I can tell you that this is a blatant lie if the man really said
16 Q. We'll -- we'll come to his statement in a minute, but on page 36
17 of yesterday's transcript, you said this: "The only dismissals were in
18 the case of serious violations of the legislation in force, specifically
19 the law on labour and labour relations." You went on to say: "The
20 greatest number of people consciously and deliberately violated the law in
21 order to be dismissed."
22 Can you tell the Chamber what, on your account, was first a
23 serious violation of the legislation that led to dismissal? Give us an
25 A. Failure to show up for work for a time longer than the maximum
1 allowed period envisaged by the law. You said --
2 Q. That's one reason. What about another one?
3 A. -- that I said that they left of their own accord. In fact, they
4 had themselves dismissed because they refused to perform at work. That
5 was --
6 Q. Can we get --
7 A. -- one of the reasons possible envisaged by the employment law.
8 Q. What you volunteered yesterday, unless the transcript is in error,
9 was that the dismissals were in cases of serious violations, in the
10 plural, of the legislation, specifically the law on labour and labour
12 Apart from absenting yourself from work, which is always going to
13 run the risk of being dismissed, what other violations can you identify
14 that led to Albanian doctors losing their jobs?
15 A. I'm trying to explain, Mr. Nice, since you won't let me. Refusal
16 to perform work tasks more than once. Just a moment ago you were trying
17 to explain something that wasn't clear to the Trial Chamber. When you
18 mentioned Mr. Pallaska and this other Albanian doctor, Ms. Meshqyre, you
19 said that I said that they left of their own accord, and you maintain that
20 they were dismissed. In response to that, I can tell you that they had
21 not shown up for work for a month or longer, and of course after that they
22 were dismissed.
23 There were cases when other people did show up at work, they
24 behaved in an unacceptable manner that amounted to provocation and
25 provoked their own dismissals.
1 Q. You see, the statements we have from Dr. Pallaska, as well as
2 dealing with the possible -- possibility of being dismissed for using the
3 Albanian language on forms or in conversation with Albanian patients, says
4 that doctors were also vulnerable for dismissal if they declined -- if
5 they supported the Trepca miners, for example, or if they'd signed the
6 petition 215 in support of the Trepca miners. What about that? Is that
7 something that would have led a doctor to lose his job?
8 A. That's absolutely untrue. It's complete nonsense and fabrication
9 that is not worth even commenting upon.
10 Q. Very well. So it's basically down to not turning up for work and
11 in some way refusing an order.
12 A. Mr. Nice, please don't take my word for it, because I didn't write
13 a single decision to dismiss somebody, but every decision pursuant to the
14 law had to clearly state the reasons. All I can tell you, generally
15 speaking, was that people were dismissed for specific violations of the
16 law on employment or, as we called it, law on labour and labour relations.
17 Q. Dr. Pallaska goes on to say that so far as he can recall, there
18 were no medical hearings. That is, I assume he means, disciplinary
19 hearings leading to dismissal, between 1989 and 1998 at Pristina hospital.
20 What do you say to that?
21 A. I'm not aware of that. I believe that in every individual case, a
22 specific procedure was followed to the full ending in the issuance of the
23 decision on dismissal, and I know of cases where these things went to
24 court and people were reinstated at work a year later.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, we'll have to adjourn now.
1 Professor, we're going to adjourn now until Monday, until Monday.
2 So you'll have to return on Monday at 9.00 a.m.
3 We are adjourned.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of
6 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.