Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17822

1 Thursday, 13 March 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

11 Q. Ms. Baca, on Tuesday you concluded by telling us that you worked

12 on a daily basis together with the UNESCO observers from end of November

13 onwards. Did the institute, together with UNESCO observers, develop an

14 action plan to organise damage assessment?

15 A. Yes, that's right. We did develop an action plan together.

16 Q. Did you set up damage assessment teams; and if so, what was their

17 composition?

18 A. Yes, we did set up teams, and we did distribute them throughout

19 parts of town. We divided up the town for this to be easier, and the

20 teams were made up, for the most part, of two individuals; one was an art

21 historian and the other being an architect. So it was a two-man team, and

22 it comprised all the different professional aspects.

23 Q. And how many teams did you have?

24 A. About eight. I can't tell you the exact number, but thereabouts.

25 Q. And did you develop a particular reporting system, and how was it

Page 17823

1 different from what you did in October and November?

2 A. Yes, we did develop a particular methodology, in fact, for

3 registering and recording the damages at the proposal and in cooperation

4 with the gentlemen from UNESCO. This differed from the previous reports

5 that had been done and the reporting system because it was far more

6 decisive. That is to say -- let me quote an example to illustrate this.

7 We had the exact time, description of the damage, the day and date of the

8 shelling, and the categorisation of the damages. This was very important

9 because, as far as was possible at that time, this gave us a concrete

10 evaluation of the damages incurred with the categories of the damages

11 themselves.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, attached to the proofing

13 summaries we have actually submitted two sets of these reports. They do

14 not need to be exhibited separately because they are actually part of the

15 big report that we would like to tender under tab 16. But the witness

16 could explain certain matters along these two reports.

17 Can the witness have these two examples.

18 Q. Ms. Baca, we have first the church of Sigurata, or monastery of

19 Sigurata, and you have here the date of your inspection and the date of

20 the incident, and there is actually a very precise time when this

21 monastery was hit. Can you explain how you could be so sure about the

22 time.

23 A. For the simple reason that this information was supplied us by the

24 nuns themselves from the monastery who, at the time of the shelling, were

25 in the monastery and they were able to tell us the exact time. This, of

Page 17824

1 course, wasn't what happened with all the lists that we filled in, but in

2 this case it was correct.

3 Q. This report actually is -- was done by yourself?

4 A. Yes, that's right. I and my colleague Nikola, an architect.

5 Q. And you have listed here the type of projectiles, and you have

6 given a very precise figure here. How could you do that? How were you

7 able to distinguish between the calibres of the mortars?

8 A. At the request and under the organisation of the representative of

9 UNESCO, Mr. Bruno Carnez and Colin Kaiser, in our conservation department

10 they organised a lecture for us with a professional, one professional, and

11 that professional explained the four or five types of projectiles and how

12 we could differentiate between them and recognise them.

13 And how did we know exactly was your question. Well, sometimes we

14 didn't. For example, there's one case here where we list three direct

15 hits. We describe two, but the third projectile, we didn't know what kind

16 it was, whereas the bullet parts would be found by some people and they

17 would keep them, or we found them on the spot. So there were different

18 types of projectiles.

19 Q. And you also -- in this report you mention direct hits, and in the

20 next report we will discuss you also mentioned indirect hits. How could

21 you distinguish between those two types?

22 A. Well, direct hits cause a great amount of damage, and it's quite

23 clear when you look at it. Indirect hits are, for the most part,

24 superficial damages which were caused by -- damages caused by parts of the

25 projectile or shrapnel. So we were able to distinguish between them; the

Page 17825

1 strength of the impact and the type of damage incurred.

2 Q. And including -- included in this church of Sigurata little

3 bundle, there is also a page showing mortar shells. Was that something

4 you were explained when you had your training? I know it's a little bit

5 further in this.

6 A. Yes. These were examples that they showed us during our training

7 sessions, yes.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this page with the various

9 shells, that's actually part of tab 14. We come to this later on.

10 Q. And in this same -- in this same document, we have also a few

11 different additional pages, the last two, actually. They refer to 1992

12 shellings. Was that same church shelled also in 1992?

13 A. Yes, that's right. It was shelled on the 29th of May, 1992. It

14 was very serious damage to the roof construction of the church, and in

15 fact, there's a large hole on -- in the very arch of the church.

16 Q. And this --

17 A. The vault.

18 Q. This last page -- these two last pages, are these actually parts

19 of a UNESCO report that was compiled later on?

20 A. Yes, that's right. That is a report of the damages caused in 1992

21 in May and June, and it is a component part of the UNESCO report as well.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these two pages actually belong

23 to tab 15, and we come to this document later on.

24 Q. And you have also -- from this huge report, you have also picked

25 the damage done to the Franciscan monastery. How many hits did this

Page 17826

1 monastery get in October, November, December 1991?

2 A. Thirty-seven direct hits.

3 Q. In the report there is mention of where the monastery was hit.

4 Was also, in addition to that, damage done to the interior; the furniture,

5 and sculptures and those kind of things?

6 A. Yes, that's right. Damage was done to the interior, and the very

7 valuable monastery library was affected and the very valuable furniture

8 inside it. Damage was also done to the stone carvings dating back to the

9 fourteenth and beginning of the fifteenth century, the decorative

10 stonework and carvings of the monastery.

11 Q. In this report that actually consists of various separate sections

12 related to sections in the building, you have also mentioned the damage,

13 the severe damage to the balustrade. Why is that something to stress?

14 A. We laid emphasis on this because this type of architectural

15 carvings are particularly difficult to reconstruct. So it was an original

16 balustrade, original carvings, and the reconstruction of this would be

17 highly complex because all the details have to be identical to the

18 original, they have to be carved from the same type of stone, and of

19 course they require the best possible professionals and artists, which

20 means a serious undertaking, serious methodology, top-level professionals

21 and cooperation among all the different professional profiles. That would

22 be needed if we were to construct it all.

23 Q. When was your survey of the damage completed?

24 A. The first report, the preliminary report on the damages up until

25 June -- the 6th of December, 1991. And on the 6th of January was when it

Page 17827

1 was actually completed, in 1992. So it began in December and was

2 completed in January.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to

4 tender this preliminary report. It's tab 16. And I will discuss a few

5 matters in this report with the witness.

6 It's actually three binders, and the first binder with the English

7 version has a summary at the beginning and then actually the compilation

8 of all these separate reports, building by building.

9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it looks as though we will

10 have to go into special training to be able to lift these binders.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I will only deal with the

12 witness with the first 12 pages. The rest is actually just the details

13 that could be checked if one wanted to do that.

14 Can the witness have the first -- just the summary.

15 Q. Witness, on the first page - actually, it's page 2 in the English

16 version - there are listed all the participants in the survey, and after a

17 photo there is an introduction part where the cooperation with UNESCO

18 representatives is discussed. You have already mentioned that, and we

19 wouldn't have to repeat it.

20 On page 6 in the English version, there is also the dates -- there

21 are the methods applied and the dates of the shelling. You have already

22 mentioned these dates to us.

23 And on page 8 in the English version, there are the categories,

24 listed the categories of damage. Is that a general worldwide category or

25 was that something developed together with UNESCO for Dubrovnik itself?

Page 17828

1 A. Yes, that is something that we developed together with UNESCO for

2 Dubrovnik itself, that's right, this categorisation.

3 Q. And these categories 1 to 4 we will also find in the damage

4 reports for each building?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. And you have also on that same page, you have the four basic types

7 of damage that you always looked for and mention in the reports; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And following then are maps, and I would like to have these maps

11 now put to you and on the ELMO. It's the map that's already actually

12 tendered, and it's Exhibit 326, tab 25. It's the map where all the hits

13 are indicated.

14 Was this map developed by your institute?

15 A. Yes, it was. We did develop the map.

16 Q. And there are nine buildings indicated here as totally destroyed.

17 Can you tell us what kind of buildings were totally destroyed? And you

18 should, with the help -- with the pointer, with the help of the pointer

19 point them out to us.

20 A. A total of nine damaged buildings, burnt. Two were residential

21 facilities; 1 and 2. These are residential buildings. All the other

22 buildings were, in fact, baroque palaces.

23 The buildings which have just been outlined means that they were

24 partially burnt buildings.

25 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I'd like to remind you that this

Page 17829

1 tab hasn't been exhibited.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I was just reminded that it would be

3 tab 25.

4 Q. Yes. The other -- the other markings are the hits on other

5 buildings. Yes.

6 And then I would like to put to you another map, and it is

7 actually Exhibit -- it would become Exhibit 326, tab 26. Can you explain

8 this map to us: What -- who made the map and what do the different

9 colours indicate?

10 A. The map was made by our institute. The categories or, rather, the

11 colours indicate the category of damage. Black stands for a completely

12 burnt down building; the orange colour indicates serious constructive

13 damage both to the roof and the walls; and the yellow indicates

14 constructive damage of either the roof or the walls; and the green

15 indicates non-constructive damage.

16 Q. Yes. Thank you. That should be sufficient.

17 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baca, could you tell me, is it everything,

18 every building in the old Dubrovnik that was protected by UNESCO, not just

19 some buildings, some parts? Am I right? Did you understand the question?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right. Dubrovnik is

21 protected as a whole and all the buildings within it, including the walls.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.


24 Q. Ms. Baca, looking at actually the colour -- the maps with the

25 various categories, it looks as if almost -- yes, the majority of the

Page 17830

1 buildings were hit. Could you give us these general figures? How many

2 buildings altogether were in these categories, in these four categories?

3 Do you have the figures, the overall figures?

4 A. I don't know those figures by heart. If the Court would permit, I

5 would refer to a document, because I -- it is very difficult for me to

6 give you the exact figures by heart.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, certainly, if you've got a document there that

8 can deal with it.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. The first category of

10 burnt palaces, there was a total of nine. Serious damage, structural

11 damage was suffered by 92 buildings. Structural damage was suffered by

12 218 buildings, and non-structural damage, 144 buildings.

13 It should be noted that in the historical nucleus of the city

14 there is a total of 824 buildings within the entire urban entity.


16 Q. Yes. Thank you, Ms. Baca.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness brought this

18 document that was provided by her institute, but we think it's enough to

19 have just the figures.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: So from that, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we could make a

21 deduction as to the percentage.


23 Q. Do you, by chance, have the percentages, Ms. Baca?

24 A. Seventy per cent of the roofs were damaged. And as to the

25 buildings, about 60 -- 55.6 per cent at that point in time. We're talking

Page 17831












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Page 17832

1 about damage covered by the preliminary report and not the damage

2 inflicted in 1992. That is not included.

3 Q. Thank you. Did the members of the UNESCO prepare a separate

4 report related to that same period, that is November, December 1991, and

5 are you aware of this report?

6 A. Yes, I am aware that such a report exists.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's tab 11, tab 11 of the

8 Exhibit 408.

9 Q. And in relation to this report, I would just like to refer to page

10 34 where actually you find that same figures that the witness just gave,

11 the nine buildings burned, the 92 buildings serious structural damage, 218

12 buildings category 3, and 144 buildings category 4. And here you also

13 have the percentages. You find them on page 34.

14 And these -- these findings in the UNESCO reports, is that based

15 on your cooperation?

16 A. Yes. They are based on our cooperation, and the documentation

17 that we had prepared was used for those reports.

18 Q. And on page 22 of this report, there is a mentioning of smoke

19 being seen after shelling did happen.

20 Are you aware whether any tyres were burned to produce an image of

21 a burning town? Did you ever see something like this or hear anything

22 like this?

23 A. No, I am not aware of any such thing. Ships were set on fire,

24 cars were hit by grenades and burnt, but I have no knowledge about tyres.

25 Q. Your institute, did it also assess damage to cultural property in

Page 17833

1 other parts of Dubrovnik, and did you prepare reports of that kind? Other

2 than the old town.

3 A. When we completed the report on the historical nucleus of the

4 town, we continued listing damage inflicted on cultural property

5 throughout the territory of the town.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the -- can the usher please put the city

7 map to the witness, and it's -- this is a map that's already in evidence.

8 It's Exhibit 326, tab 23, and it gives us the town -- the town in its

9 entirety.

10 Q. And could you point out the regions where there were also cultural

11 monuments that were hit and damaged. Just the regions and maybe briefly

12 say what kind of buildings were damaged.

13 A. I can point it out. There was Gruz. This part of the town where

14 certain important buildings from the sixteenth and seventeenth century are

15 situated, with an architecture that is typical of our area and that of

16 Italy. These were holiday homes.

17 Similar damage was inflicted again on two summer homes from the

18 same period in this area and in the immediate vicinity of the old town.

19 So this is something that needs to be pointed out, that extremely

20 valuable buildings protected by law were also seriously damaged.

21 Q. Was the university library destroyed, do you know, or damaged?

22 A. It was completely burnt.

23 Q. And where would that be?

24 A. It is exactly here. I am pointing it out.

25 Q. The witness is pointing right from the park, between the park and

Page 17834

1 the old town. Yes.

2 Are you aware that the UNESCO observers also prepared a report

3 mentioned -- entitled "Dubrovnik 1991-1992," including now the damage done

4 in summer 1992?

5 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that's tab 14. And in relation

7 to this report, this report has on page 10 an explanation regarding the

8 conventions. It's on page 13. Historical data. And there you also find

9 on page 24 this page with the mortars mentioned.

10 Q. And are you also familiar with a UNESCO report in relation to the

11 damage now adding figures, costs of restoration? Are you aware of such a

12 report?

13 A. Yes. It is part of their report, both the costs of restoration

14 and the 1992 damage and a plan or, rather, the order of priorities for the

15 reconstruction. And in that respect, it differs from the -- our reports

16 up until then.

17 Q. Yes.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that's tab 15 of Exhibit 408.

19 Q. You already mentioned, and it is also said here in this report,

20 that the town was shelled in May, June 1992. What was ongoing in relation

21 to the JNA or, rather, the VJ at that time?

22 A. The 26th of May the army started to withdraw from the western part

23 of Dubrovnik, and also it withdrew from the immediate surroundings of the

24 town. And three days later, after that withdrawal, on the 29th of May the

25 historical nucleus of the town was shelled, then again on the 8th of June,

Page 17835

1 and again on the 19th of June. So there were three shellings of the

2 historical nucleus of the city after the withdrawal. This time, these

3 were shells of greater strength because obviously the distance from which

4 the shelling came was greater. So that the damage inflicted in that

5 period was extremely grave. Very serious structural damage was done.

6 Q. Did you review a video when you came here and we prepared your

7 testimony, did you review a video related to the shelling of the 6th of

8 December and the extent of the damage?

9 A. Yes, that is true.

10 Q. And what you saw on the video, did that cover your own

11 observations when you went through the town immediately after the

12 shelling?

13 A. Perhaps there were fewer people, but the observation was the same.

14 That day when I was coming into town, there were more people. There were

15 -- the fire brigades were out. There were many people who were crying

16 and people rushing to work. So it was far more crowded than shown on the

17 picture, but the damage is the same.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we have put together five

19 minutes that actually show the totally destroyed palaces and also the

20 monastery that the witness referred to. We would like to show it, but if

21 you think it's not time for doing so, we wouldn't insist.

22 JUDGE MAY: If it's five minutes, I think we might see that.

23 It'll be five minutes.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. It's tab 19, and tab 19 is

25 actually the entire video.

Page 17836

1 Q. And you may -- if you could assist us when you see it, just

2 telling us which palace it is that is destroyed. Thank you.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the destroyed palace in the

5 Siroka Street. The street is called Siroka or Brod. It is a baroque

6 palace.

7 This is the next burnt palace, also a baroque palace, in another

8 street. It is known as the Martinusic palace.

9 And we're in the same street known as Od Kuca Street. This is the

10 St. Josef church. And right next to it is the next baroque palace that

11 was burnt down.

12 The Orthodox church in Dubrovnik.

13 The cross on Mount Srdj that was shelled.

14 Another palace, another baroque palace. This is the internal

15 decorative plaster, the decorations over the doors, the gates, the

16 cupboards, and the staircase as it used to be.

17 Here you see the Franciscan monastery and the damage on the roof.

18 The Minceta tower with the UNESCO flag on it. And again, this is

19 the UNESCO flag and the damage to the roof below.

20 The whole complex of the Franciscan monastery dates back to the

21 thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. Parts of it are even older.

22 This is another direct hit in the very corner between the church

23 and the rest of the monastery, a direct hit of the roof of a part of the

24 monastery, and the damage to architectural plasterwork.

25 This is a direct hit on the floor and the Gothic Renaissance

Page 17837

1 balustrade that was completely destroyed. So it is very difficult to

2 reconstruct it including all the details and using the same kind of stone.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this concludes the

4 examination-in-chief. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Baca, you have stated on the last page of

8 your statement and in the last paragraph that you are a member of the HDZ

9 since 1990. Is that right?

10 A. Yes, that is right, and that is my private affair.

11 Q. I'm not saying whether that is your private affair or not. I'm

12 just referring to your membership in a political party which came into

13 power in 1990.

14 JUDGE MAY: What's the question?

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Did you regularly attend HDZ meetings?

17 A. I've already said that I was not an active member.

18 Q. I didn't hear you. You were not an active -- no. You said that

19 you were not an official.

20 A. That is not true.

21 Q. I hope a member is an active member by being a member. But tell

22 me, please, do you know when your party started the preparations and plans

23 for the activities, the military activities, in connection with Dubrovnik?

24 A. I have absolutely no information about that. Anyway, that is not

25 the subject of my testimony.

Page 17838

1 Q. The subject of your testimony is certainly your statement,

2 Ms. Baca. So please bear that in mind. And I'm asking you questions

3 within that context as well as about what you told us a moment ago.

4 On page 2 of your statement, in paragraph 6, you say that tension

5 increased in 1991 -- "As the tension increased in 1991, I increasingly

6 feared that the JNA would attack Dubrovnik." Is that what you said?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. And when did you start to fear that the JNA would attack

9 Dubrovnik?

10 A. When we saw what was going on throughout Croatia at that time.

11 Q. Was this the time when the JNA barracks were blocked all over

12 Croatia? Is that what we're talking about?

13 A. We're talking about the month of August 1991, to be precise.

14 Q. What was the basis for your fears? Why did you think that the JNA

15 would attack Dubrovnik? You said you're talking about the month of

16 August.

17 JUDGE MAY: What is causing this? Yes. We'll try again. Can we

18 find what the trouble is that's making this noise. It's quite impossible

19 to continue.

20 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting, I would like to emphasise the

21 paragraph numbers should be numbered in the same way. I note that this is

22 para number 5 in English, and the accused referred to number 6.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is everything all right now?

24 JUDGE MAY: The problem which the usher is sorting out has to do

25 with your headset which you won't wear. But we'll put it --

Page 17839

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's nothing unusual today in

2 relation to any other day, Mr. May.

3 JUDGE MAY: There obviously is.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Everything is the same.

5 JUDGE MAY: There obviously is because of this interference which

6 is coming over. But let's see how we come along.

7 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In just in relation to Judge Kwon's question,

9 actually it is the same numbering and the accused has misspoken. It's

10 paragraph 5.

11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I answer the question? I

14 heard it in spite of the noise. May I answer the question?

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the reports of the Ministry of

17 Culture that were sent to us spoke of certain damage already done in the

18 north of Croatia to cultural property covered by The Hague convention.

19 And the activities and the order that arrived from the Ministry of Culture

20 prompted us to start to mark cultural property under The Hague Convention,

21 and it became clear to me then what could be done.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You are claiming -- and let me not give the wrong number of the

24 paragraph again. You're claiming on the second page, 2, that the director

25 of the institute at the time, Dora Valjalo-Kondres, in July and August

Page 17840

1 1991 called you and your colleagues back from annual leave for you to

2 protect the most important historical monuments in and around Dubrovnik;

3 is that right?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. So in July and August, you're called back from your holiday to

6 protect the monuments in Dubrovnik and its environs. Now, why, please

7 tell me, you put up scaffolding, wooden planks and so on when in those

8 months no one was attacking, not Dubrovnik but even the surroundings nor

9 in that area was there any kind of intimation of any conflicts breaking

10 out?

11 A. First of all, the order came from the Ministry of Culture.

12 Q. Oh, I see. So an order arrived.

13 A. And secondly, I already said that the situation in other parts of

14 Croatia had in fact prompted such an order to be issued.

15 Q. But you know, Ms. Baca, that in the area of Dubrovnik over the

16 last 20-year period, there were no military personnel except, of course,

17 for the holiday homes for them which were not any sources that could

18 provoke any fears or apprehensions.

19 A. Yes, that is true, but the question is: Why was Dubrovnik

20 attacked at all?

21 Q. Let me ask you, then: You're a local from Dubrovnik, you're

22 familiar with all the people there, at least those in leading positions;

23 does the name Martin Vukorep mean anything to you?

24 A. Yes, I know it.

25 Q. And he was head of the staff of the Territorial Defence of

Page 17841












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Page 17842

1 Dubrovnik, wasn't he?

2 A. I know the name; I don't know his position.

3 Q. Very well. You know the name but you don't know exactly what

4 position he held. You don't know that he was chief of the Territorial

5 Defence in Dubrovnik?

6 A. I didn't have to know that.

7 Q. I'm not saying that you necessarily had to know that. I'm just

8 asking you whether you knew that.

9 A. No.

10 Q. Fine. July 1991 was certainly not a month in which there were any

11 intimations of any kind of an attack on Dubrovnik. Isn't that right,

12 Ms. Baca?

13 A. As far as I can recollect, there were no such intimations.

14 Q. Could you then please read out, aloud, what that gentleman,

15 Mr. Vukorep, says in a letter he sent to the Ministry of Defence of the

16 Republic of Croatia personally to Minister Simo Djodan, and in person

17 to --

18 JUDGE MAY: What is this witness going to know about what this man

19 sent to the Ministry of Defence? This witness has come here to talk about

20 the damage. You want to read something out which is totally irrelevant to

21 her evidence. Now, move on to something else.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. It is highly

23 relevant for the testimony, the fact that in July, the month of July,

24 there was absolutely no danger from the Yugoslav People's Army in the

25 surrounding parts of Dubrovnik in any way whatsoever. And it is quite

Page 17843

1 obvious, if we look at the statement by this witness, that in July and

2 August, preparations were already under way to fortify those buildings, to

3 build up protective barriers and so on.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, Mr. Milosevic, we all know your case. What

5 you can ask the witness is what she saw. You can ask her that, of course,

6 whether she saw any preparations for war, whether there was any building

7 in the old town, whether there were guns moved in. Of course you can ask

8 questions like that if that's your case. What she saw and heard herself,

9 you can ask her that. What you can't ask her about is some letters

10 passing between third parties about which she'll know absolutely nothing.

11 If you want put the evidence before us, I've said it many times, you can

12 do so when it's your turn to give evidence and put evidence before us.

13 But you can't waste time asking this witness about things about which she

14 knows nothing.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I think that my question

16 was a pertinent one and that as its foundations we have the fact that the

17 witness explained that there were no military forces in Dubrovnik, and

18 that is why, following on from that statement of hers. Because she was

19 asked in fact by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff about this, I assume that I too have

20 the right to ask my question during the cross-examination. So could we

21 have your comments, please.

22 JUDGE MAY: What you cannot do is put a letter passing between two

23 third parties to her. If there is something concrete in the letter that

24 you want to put, then you can put it. Did you see forces being moved in?

25 Something of that sort. Did you see armament in the Hotel Excelsior, or

Page 17844

1 whatever it is. You can put that. But you can't put this letter to her

2 and try and get her to read it out. It's an abuse of the process. Now,

3 move on, please.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Fine, Mr. May. I really

5 don't wish to abuse the witness in any way or impose letter-reading on

6 her. But on the 23rd of June, 1991, the Chief of Staff says that

7 reviewing the overall situation within the Dubrovnik defence --

8 JUDGE MAY: You can tell us about it. At the moment, you're

9 asking this witness questions. You can tell us all about it when you come

10 to give your evidence, but for the moment, you're confined to asking this

11 witness questions.

12 Now, if you've got no other questions to ask her, we will let her

13 go rather than detaining her and wasting everybody's time.

14 Now, I've told you can't read out the letter to her or get her to

15 read it out. Now, move on to something else.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, please. Can we get one

17 thing clear? It says here that the man is tendering his resignation

18 because he doesn't want to be at the beck and call on the 116th Guards

19 Corps of Dubrovnik, which means that in June --

20 JUDGE MAY: Look, I'm going to now consult with my colleagues as

21 to whether we should stop this. You're not paying attention to the

22 rulings. The ruling is very simple: You cannot put this letter about

23 somebody else to her. She's nothing to do with the guards division or

24 anything like that. Now, either you move on or I stop the

25 cross-examination. It's very simple.

Page 17845

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mrs. Baca, do you know that at that time, that is to say already

3 in June, in Dubrovnik there was a brigade of the Croatian National Guards

4 Corps in place?

5 A. I know nothing about that. I'm an art historian.

6 Q. Right. You don't know anything about that. Fine. But you do

7 know, and we've seen that here, we were shown a big binder full of

8 documents, UNESCO documents, which by the way, that same SFRY drew up with

9 UNESCO quite a number of years beforehand, where Mrs. Retzlaff quoted in

10 particular the positions taken by The Hague Convention.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I resume, Mr. May?

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. As I was saying, we have seen here many documents. Mrs. Retzlaff

16 quoted in particular The Hague Convention provisions which relate to the

17 protection of localities and the obligation to refrain from any use of

18 localities for military purposes. Therefore, Mrs. Baca, on the one hand

19 you have the presence of the Croatian National Guards Corps, which was

20 treated in Yugoslavia as a paramilitary formation at that time. It was in

21 Dubrovnik. And to such an intensity that the organs of Dubrovnik reacted

22 themselves.

23 On the other hand, you were ordered to fortify and protect the

24 town. So Dubrovnik --

25 JUDGE MAY: Fortify? To fortify the town? That wasn't the

Page 17846

1 witness's evidence. They were simply -- or are you suggesting she was

2 fortifying it in some way?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. What I meant was to protect the

4 buildings in the town in preparation, quite obviously, for some expected

5 combat that nobody could have known about in the month of June. So that's

6 what I'm pointing to here, Mr. May. I am pointing out the obvious

7 preparations that went on to protect -- to use Dubrovnik as a protected

8 town for provocations, because in June, July, and August, there was

9 absolutely no --

10 JUDGE MAY: We'll put that to the witness. As far as she knows,

11 she can deal with that.

12 From what you saw and from the work that you were doing marking

13 the buildings and the like, did it appear to you that the town was being

14 prepared for a provocation? Did it ever occur to you that that -- or did

15 anybody say, "This is the plan," something of that sort?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never. And as far as the

17 applications of The Hague Convention are concerned, if you read it

18 carefully - and I'm sure that you know this - that the preparations for

19 the protection of cultural heritage is conducted during peacetime.

20 JUDGE MAY: What did you think you were doing? What did you think

21 the purpose of what you were doing, marking the buildings, was.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose of it was to prevent

23 damage to cultural sites, or to prevent them from being used for military

24 purposes, in conformity with the provisions of The Hague Convention, to

25 the letter.

Page 17847

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Well, just to clear this matter up. I don't mind if you're going

4 to give me a yes or no answer, all I wish is to get an answer from you.

5 Do you consider that it is not contested in view of the -- your

6 activities to protect the monuments and in view of the presence of the

7 116th Brigade of the Croatian National Guards Corps and the activities of

8 the TO of Dubrovnik, that the Croatian authorities already in June, July,

9 and August 1991 were preparing themselves from something -- for something

10 in the military sense? Is that quite obvious or not?

11 A. It is not in my field of expertise and competence to answer that

12 question.

13 Q. All right. Then just give me a brief answer. In July or August

14 of that year, was any attack launched on Dubrovnik and its environs?

15 A. I can't remember any attack taking place.

16 Q. So despite the fact that nobody was actually attacking Dubrovnik

17 and that in its vicinity in July there was no fighting going on, you and

18 the Dubrovnik authorities were taking steps which intimate the advent of

19 shelling of the town and conflicts in the old town proper; is that right?

20 A. No, that is not right. We were acting according to instructions

21 and in keeping with the Ministry of Culture. Our Institute for the

22 Protection of Cultural Heritage, in keeping with the Ministry of Culture

23 of the Republic of Croatia, working together.

24 Q. Well, I don't doubt that you were given instructions by the

25 Ministry of Culture, and rest assured, Mrs. Baca, that I don't consider

Page 17848

1 you yourself to be a participant in any of these events at all, the ones

2 that I'm talking about and referring to. But with respect to your

3 testimony, one can draw certain conclusions.

4 Have you heard of the name of Ivan Varenina at all?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Then I won't ask you anything about him in that case.

7 Just tell me this: You spent your whole life in Dubrovnik, since

8 you were born almost. Do you know that that man is a local from

9 Dubrovnik? Have you heard of him at all?

10 A. No. No, I haven't heard of him. I just don't know who he is.

11 Q. Fine. But you did know the townsfolk of Dubrovnik, people who

12 were natives of Dubrovnik, born there, practically all of them.

13 A. Well, I can't say I knew all of them. I can't know everybody in

14 town. Maybe I knew them by sight, but to know somebody closer, I can't

15 say.

16 Q. Well, I thought Dubrovnik was a small town and people born in

17 Dubrovnik would know each other.

18 But anyway, on page 2, paragraph 7, you say that you spent your

19 working days in Dubrovnik. "I was living during the working week in

20 Dubrovnik and spent the weekends at Cavtat with my parents and my sister."

21 Is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. So during the time of preparation for this alleged defence of

24 Dubrovnik, you went to Cavtat for your weekends unimpeded, and you went to

25 and from Dubrovnik and Cavtat; is that right?

Page 17849

1 A. Yes, of course. That's Croatian territory. Why should I be

2 impeded?

3 Q. Well, I'm not questioning, Mrs. Baca, that Dubrovnik and Cavtat

4 are in the territory of Croatia. All I'm saying is that during the time

5 these preparations went on to defend and protect Dubrovnik, you were

6 nevertheless free to travel from Dubrovnik to Cavtat and back. So does

7 that mean and is it true that during those preparations for this alleged

8 defence, neither in Dubrovnik or in Cavtat - which is how many kilometres

9 in the southerly direction from Dubrovnik? - or around those two towns

10 either or on the road between the two towns, there was no JNA presence at

11 all. Isn't that right?

12 A. Yes, that's right.

13 Q. But Dubrovnik was preparing for its defence; right? So tell me

14 where the office is, the headquarters of your institute. Where were they

15 in the old town?

16 A. Right next to the Dominican monastery.

17 Q. Fine. On page 2, paragraph 8, you say that: "Shortly after 8.00

18 a.m. on the 1st of October, the shelling commenced." Right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you saying that nothing came before this, happened before

21 this? Just quite suddenly somebody started shelling the town? Is that

22 what you're saying?

23 A. Well, I don't know what events took place before that. I don't

24 know what the forerunner was.

25 Q. But then, out of the blue, somebody started shelling the town. Is

Page 17850

1 that it? Was that your impression?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Fine. And then you go on to say that on that same day

4 - and there's a correction here - you say around noon, that is to say

5 before the expulsion -- your office hours were over, you were allowed to

6 leave; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So the town started to be shelled at 8.00 a.m., you stayed on the

9 job at your workplace, and then sometime around noon you were allowed to

10 leave the premises. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So despite the shelling, you spent more than half your working day

13 at the institute in your offices; right?

14 A. Our offices were on the ground floor, and that's where we were.

15 We took refuge there.

16 Q. So you didn't spend that morning working at your workplace, but

17 you went to a shelter of some kind, did you?

18 A. It was part of our office premises.

19 Q. What did you say?

20 A. It was part of the building that we otherwise worked in.

21 Q. Well, did you spend the time in your own office, working in your

22 own office?

23 A. Part of the time, yes; part of the time not.

24 Q. What did you say?

25 A. Depending on the intensity of the attack.

Page 17851












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17852

1 Q. All right. If it was an all-out attack, why didn't you leave your

2 workplace? Because you weren't in the health service or the fire brigade

3 or anything of that kind, and you have your own family, wouldn't it have

4 been logical to have left your workplace, left your job and gone home

5 because you were perhaps worried and anxious about your family members,

6 your household, your relatives? Why didn't you leave your workplace

7 before that?

8 A. We had a director. She -- it was a lady, and she decided who was

9 to stay, who was to leave, when we could stay, and when we could leave.

10 We had our work obligations to fulfil.

11 Q. Well, did she let you go home at noon?

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. Does that mean that up until then she prevented you from leaving

14 your institute?

15 A. Well, nobody even asked to leave, actually.

16 Q. All right. You say you went to your uncle's apartment when you

17 left. And as you noticed planes shelling Srdj at the time, military

18 planes selling Srdj. That's what you said.

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. All right. Now, you say that the shelling began at 8.00 a.m., and

21 after 12.00, when you went to your uncle's apartment, this was probably

22 2.00 or 3.00 p.m., and you saw that air force planes were shelling Srdj.

23 What had been shelled before that? What was shelled?

24 A. Well, I don't know. Everything all around. We could see smoke.

25 I don't know actually what was shelled. The historical nucleus of the

Page 17853

1 town was not at that time, that's all I can say.

2 Q. I didn't hear you; what did you say?

3 A. The historical nucleus of the town was not shelled at that

4 particular time. It was Mount Srdj that was shelled from the planes, but

5 what happened otherwise, I don't know. We saw smoke around the town.

6 Q. Did you happen to hear that somebody opened fire from Dubrovnik,

7 with respect to what you said when you said that the old town was not

8 shelled but what was shelled was something else? This something else that

9 was shelled, were those the positions occupied by the members of the

10 National Guard Corps?

11 A. I really don't know anything about that.

12 Q. What did you say?

13 A. Well, I don't know anything about that. I'm not a military

14 expert, and I don't have any knowledge about this. I'm an art historian.

15 Q. Very well. You say that the old town was shelled for the first

16 time on the 23rd and 24th of October. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And this happened on the 1st of October.

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. So for those 23 days, you knew nothing at all about any kind of

21 actions taken by these units from Dubrovnik against the JNA positions,

22 before that period of 23 days or during that 23-day period?

23 A. No, I didn't.

24 Q. And on that day, according to your statement, quite a lot was

25 damaged. Quite a number of buildings were damaged. That's what you say,

Page 17854

1 don't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you've listed the buildings that were damaged. We've now seen

4 the videotape of one building. And tell me, what was the damage on the

5 other buildings?

6 A. I've provided all my reports with the categories of damage, the

7 number of buildings damaged and all the other details contained in the

8 reports.

9 Q. Yes. But on that day, you prepared just a brief report on the

10 damage and an evaluation of the damage and sent it to Zagreb, to the

11 Ministry of Culture; is that right?

12 A. Yes, correct.

13 Q. Is it true that you prepared a more thorough estimate of the

14 damage after the 7th of December that same year?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when exactly did you do that?

17 A. From the 7th of December 1991 up until -- if you're talking about

18 the details and if you're thinking of the damage after the 23rd and 24th

19 of October, then we prepared that report the very next day.

20 Q. You say that Dubrovnik was actually heavily shelled on the 6th of

21 December, 1991. No. It's not what you say, but several other witnesses

22 have told us that. Would you agree with that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell me now, after this heavier shelling of Dubrovnik that

25 occurred on the 6th of December, could you carry out a thorough evaluation

Page 17855

1 of the damage in the old town that occurred on the 23rd and 24th of

2 October, a month and a half prior to that?

3 A. First of all, we had taken note of all the damage made. And

4 secondly, we prepared for each building an estimate. The buildings were

5 not abandoned; people were living inside.

6 Q. Tell me, do you or your institute have any video documents of the

7 damage that was done on the 23rd and 24th of October?

8 A. There are photo documents, not video documents.

9 Q. Why didn't you prepare a videotape?

10 A. We don't have a video camera.

11 Q. I see that for this other side or -- you did have one.

12 JUDGE MAY: Can you tell us where the video camera -- do you know

13 where the film came from on the 6th of December? Perhaps Ms.

14 Uertz-Retzlaff can help us.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the film was not provided by the

16 institute. It's actually the film provided by a witness that we will talk

17 about later on, and the witness just reviewed it and confirmed that it's

18 what she saw herself. It's from another witness.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Tell me, please, do you remember the 11th of November, 1991? Was

21 this a date that sticks in your memory for any reason at all?

22 A. From the 8th to the 13th of November, Dubrovnik was shelled. For

23 five consecutive days there was an exchange of fire.

24 Q. Very well. Do you know that members of the National Guards Corps

25 from Dubrovnik - I suppose you will remember that because you were in

Page 17856

1 Dubrovnik then - on the 11th of November managed to hit an ammunition

2 depot of the JNA at Zarkovica?

3 A. I have no knowledge about that. I have no knowledge about that at

4 all.

5 Q. But this was quite a loud explosion, and you know nothing about

6 it. We watched a videotape of an English reporter on which he says they

7 have hit the warehouse, and then as a result of the explosion, the shells,

8 fragments scattered over the old town. Don't you think that the damage on

9 the roof of the Franciscan monastery, for instance, on the tiles of the

10 roof, don't really appear to be direct hits but possible damage caused by

11 fragments of shells after the ammunition depot was hit? Because if that

12 had been a direct hit, then surely there should a crater or larger damage

13 within the monastery itself as a result. Do you know anything at all

14 about the damage caused as a result of the fragmentation of shells that

15 hit the ammunition depot, fired by the National Guards Corps, and the

16 resulting explosion?

17 A. All I can assert is that our list of damage, our preliminary

18 reports, are extremely accurate and reliable. As for this, I have no idea

19 about it.

20 Q. Very well. I see that you don't wish to know anything about these

21 things, though I think --

22 JUDGE MAY: That is not a proper comment. The witness says she

23 doesn't know. She doesn't know the cause.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Very well. Do you have --

Page 17857

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] She don't know about something that

2 was so loud and spectacular that every citizen of Dubrovnik must have

3 known.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. But tell me, please, do you have any report about damage done on

6 the 11th of November? Do you have that report?

7 A. For the historical nucleus of the town, yes.

8 Q. Well, what was the damage done on the 11th of November on those

9 historical buildings? Could you tell us, briefly?

10 A. Just the same as on the 6th of December, only of less scope,

11 lesser scope.

12 Q. So when these numerous shells went off and scattered all over

13 Dubrovnik, the damage was of a lower intensity than on other days. Are

14 you claiming that according to your reports, on the 11th of November the

15 damage was lesser than on the other days?

16 A. No. I'm claiming exactly what is contained in the reports.

17 Q. And what does it say in your report for the 11th of November?

18 A. We didn't cover just one date but the period from the 8th to the

19 13th of November, 1991.

20 Q. Why, then, do you claim that on that day the damage was less?

21 A. I didn't say on that day. I said during that period.

22 Q. So between the 8th and the 13th of November, the damage done to

23 Dubrovnik was of the least intensity.

24 Please tell me, did you then say that from the 8th to the 13th,

25 which is the period to which your report refers, the damage done to

Page 17858

1 Dubrovnik was least?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Well, what then did you say? I didn't understand you.

4 A. What I said, and I am repeating, is that the first attack on the

5 historical nucleus of the town of Dubrovnik occurred on the 23rd and the

6 24th of October, 1991.

7 Q. Yes. We established that.

8 A. The second attack was from the 8th to the 13th of November, 1992,

9 and the third on the 6th of December. Every following one was of greater

10 intensity. The attack on the 23rd and the 24th of October was of the

11 lowest intensity, as can be confirmed by the documentation, as can

12 everything else, the documentation prepared by the Institute for the

13 Protection of Monuments in Dubrovnik.

14 Q. So the intensity was considerable at the time when this warehouse

15 of ammunition was blown up. That is the period from the 8th to the 13th

16 of November. Isn't that so?

17 A. I've said everything I know about the damage and everything that

18 is written about the damage in the period from the 8th to the 13th of

19 November, 1991.

20 JUDGE MAY: The time has come to adjourn. We will adjourn now for

21 20 minutes.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

24 JUDGE MAY: You've got 20 minutes more, Mr. Milosevic, if you want

25 it, with this witness.

Page 17859

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did you tell the investigators, Ms. Baca, that it seemed to you

3 when speaking about the 6th of December, when you say that the shelling

4 was intensive, that it seemed to you that most of the shells were falling

5 on the old town or its immediate vicinity?

6 A. Yes, that's right.

7 Q. And what you assumed is something that you also heard on the

8 radio.

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Tell me why, in spite of such heavy shelling, you spent the whole

11 day in town. Why didn't you seek shelter?

12 A. Simply we found the safest places within our own houses.

13 Q. On that day, about 1.00 p.m., as you say, you were standing in

14 front of the town and you saw somebody shelling Srdj; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was shelling Srdj?

17 A. I'm not sure.

18 Q. Is it true that you heard several explosions in Lapad and saw

19 shells coming from Lapad hitting Srdj?

20 A. What I said in my statement was my personal impression, and I

21 stand by what I said.

22 Q. I understand that that is your personal impression.

23 You say on page 4 that Srdj was being shelled and that it was

24 being shelled from around Lapad. Did the JNA have any positions at Lapad

25 in those days?

Page 17860

1 A. I don't know. I think it did not.

2 Q. So you don't think it did. Well, who had positions at Lapad?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. You don't know that forces of the ZNG had positions at Lapad? You

5 don't know that?

6 A. Possibly. I don't know that.

7 Q. But Lapad is in Dubrovnik, is it not?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Tell me, please, did you record by video the damage done to

10 buildings in the old town on the 6th of December? Because you say that

11 that was the fiercest attack. Did you record that by video?

12 A. The conservation department in Dubrovnik doesn't have a video

13 camera, but we corroborated everything with photo documents, and we have

14 those photographs in our department.

15 Q. Tell me, when was the damage repaired?

16 A. The damage is being repaired to this day.

17 Q. Do you have any video document about the reconstruction and the

18 repairs to that damage? As you say, this is going on to the present day.

19 Do you have videotapes of that?

20 A. We have photo documents, I must repeat. We still don't have a

21 video recorder. But all other relevant documents do exist in the

22 conservation department, such as photographs of the sites, exploratory

23 work, architectural documents, and so on.

24 Q. Is the damage still recognisable on all the buildings that you

25 mention in your written reports?

Page 17861












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17862

1 A. They were documented. In some cases, they're not recognisable.

2 Q. I see. So in some cases they're not recognisable. You certainly

3 know Zvonimir Franic.

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Do you know that he, too, was going to testify about the

6 destruction you're testifying about?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at his report. He was director

9 of your institute, wasn't he, for a brief time?

10 A. No.

11 Q. But that is what it said in his CV.

12 A. He was never director of the conservation department in Dubrovnik.

13 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at his report and photographs of

14 damage, for instance, on the chapel of Navjestenje, the Chapel of the

15 Annunciation.

16 JUDGE MAY: Show us the photographs that you want the witness to

17 see.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Please give her this

19 photograph.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Now show me, please, the damage that he refers to in his report on

22 this chapel.

23 A. It must be described in an accompanying document.

24 JUDGE MAY: The witness can't answer what's in somebody else's

25 report unless she's seen it. Perhaps, Mr. Milosevic, you'd tell us what

Page 17863

1 the point of the question is. What is it you want dealt with?

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are photographs that were

3 produced here as evidence of the damage in Dubrovnik, and that is the same

4 chapel, the Benedictine monastery, the Benedictine nunnery.


6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And here you have those two

7 photographs as well. This is the Institute for the Protection of

8 Monuments of Culture and Natural Heritage in Dubrovnik, and I'm asking the

9 witness where the damage is.

10 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. It may be very difficult to see on a

11 photograph of this sort which is of poor quality. It's a photocopy.

12 If there is some point arising, there is another report which

13 shows that buildings weren't damaged, it may well be that we can get that

14 admitted in some other way. It's very difficult for the witness to deal

15 with it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there is no separate report of

17 Mr. Franic, to our knowledge, because Mr. Franic was part of the team that

18 documented this huge report that we have now exhibited, and this is

19 probably one building, a report referring to one separate building.

20 JUDGE MAY: The accused is entitled to ask about it.

21 It sounds as though, Mr. Milosevic, it's the same report.

22 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it may be that you could help since it was

23 your witness who produced this. Can you tell us where this is likely to

24 have come from?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We are trying to find that separate little

Page 17864

1 report.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it was attached to the

3 statement of Zvonimir Franic, who was here on the list of witnesses and

4 was replaced by this witness. Will you look at these photographs as

5 well. They have all been marked by the other side.

6 JUDGE MAY: Let us deal with it in this way: We will find out

7 which the report is. You've referred to this as a chapel. Now, tell us

8 what the other two photographs that you're wanting the witness to look at

9 are, and we'll put them in front of the witness. It will be very

10 difficult for her, but we may ask her if she can see any damage or not, if

11 that's the point.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, please. I have here several

13 photographs. Mr. Franic signed this report on the 10th of July, 2000.

14 That is what it says here.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. But please look at the photographs --

18 JUDGE MAY: No. Hand them back.

19 Mr. Milosevic, will you tell us, for the record, what the

20 photographs are of, please, the buildings, so we've got it on the

21 transcript.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On one is the Benedictine monastery,

23 the western wing or facade, probably, because it's not legible. And then

24 the easterly facade. So it has been photographed from all sides. And in

25 his report, he speaks of damages, and these are the photographs that he

Page 17865

1 attaches to indicate this. So I wish to ask the witness to indicate where

2 the damages on these buildings are because she worked with these buildings

3 in detail.


5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So you can hand that to the witness.

6 JUDGE MAY: We will put them to the witness. The witness can have

7 a look, and if she can see any damage, she can point it out, or if not, we

8 can look at the report.

9 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, if we could get the ERN number

11 on top of the document, we could easily find it, but without it's very

12 hard to pick a photo.

13 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness see it first and then it can go to the

14 Prosecution.

15 Now, Ms. Baca, can you see any damage or not? That's really the

16 point.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I can say is that these are

18 very poor quality copies and that it's very difficult for me to see

19 anything on them. Not only the damage but everything else is indistinct.

20 As for the first photograph, on that I can notice --

21 JUDGE MAY: If you can point to it.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- damages along this part here,

23 along the roof structure, by the absidia and the roof structure. That's

24 where the damage lies, and you can see the difference compared to the rest

25 of the walls.

Page 17866

1 JUDGE MAY: Just help us -- before we lose that one, the chapel,

2 which chapel was it? It's got a name on it but it's not on the ELMO.

3 Could you tell us, please, Ms. Baca.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chapel is Navjestenje. That's

5 what it says.

6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. So we have it for the record. If you'd

7 like to look at the other photographs to see whether you can see anything

8 or not.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I've already said these are

10 very poor quality photocopies, and it's very difficult for me to see the

11 facade and the damages and the windows. There are some white blemishes

12 here. I can't say with any certainty what they are, but let me repeat

13 that along with these photographs, there must be an accompanying text

14 which locates the damages that are talked about.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to look at the other photograph

16 too. Then we'll get them handed to the Prosecution. Is there anything

17 you can see on that you want to point out?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see that here. All I can

19 see is a white space here.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what they mean, these

22 white spaces or empty areas. I can't say either way, one way or the

23 other, unless I have the documents attached to it and everything necessary

24 for a report.

25 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Baca, don't worry. We will get the report out,

Page 17867

1 and we can look at that. But the accused is entitled to put these matters

2 to you.

3 Would you hand them to the Prosecution and then we'll identify

4 where the report is.

5 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if you'd let us know in due course where it

6 is.

7 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that you are bearing in

9 mind the fact that I received those documents with Mr. Franic's statement

10 from the other side over there. So the quality of the photographs and all

11 the rest of it is something that they must be responsible for. But quite

12 obviously you can see that we -- damages cannot be ascertained on those

13 copies.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Tell me, please, do you know when the photographs were taken?

16 Perhaps you know that.

17 A. Well, it says in the report.

18 JUDGE MAY: When normally were the photographs taken? Can you

19 tell us generally how you went about photographing them? Did you do it at

20 the same time as you made the report?

21 A. Mostly it was done at the same time, but as there were eight

22 different teams working simultaneously to register and record the war

23 damages, sometimes what would happen was that a plan of the damages would

24 be handed over to a photographer, and then he might take the photographs

25 subsequently, afterwards, on the basis of the plan, because it wasn't --

Page 17868

1 it wasn't possible for the photographers to go around with each of the

2 teams. Sometimes the photographs would be taken by the representatives of

3 UNESCO, Colin Kaiser and Bruno Carnez, actually. They had their own

4 cameras so they sometimes took the photographs.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. On page 5 of your statement, Mrs. Baca, you make mention of a

8 report in the compiling of which you took part, and you say you signed it

9 too; is that right?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. Is it true that you attached those documents here for us to see?

12 A. All the reports or, rather, the buildings that I dealt with are

13 within the general documents handed over to the Tribunal.

14 Q. On page 5, paragraph 8, you say that the report represents a copy

15 of the authentic original reports.

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. And tell me, when did these come into being, these copied-out

18 reports?

19 A. In the morning. As soon as we got to work we would start making

20 lists of the damages.

21 Q. I'm asking you something else.

22 A. May I be allowed to finish my answer? We would go back to our

23 conservation department and then would write this out again or, rather,

24 type then out on ordinary mechanical typewriters - we had no electricity -

25 and then these forms were handed over to our director, the lady, and she

Page 17869

1 would in turn hand them over to the gentlemen from UNESCO who would enter

2 it into their joint collective documentation.

3 Q. As you say that this represents the exact copy of the source

4 documents, tell me, please, where the source documents are, the original

5 documents.

6 A. The source documents are in our documentary files. But as I say,

7 everything was copied out the moment it was done, half an hour afterwards

8 or an hour later, as soon as we arrived back in our offices in the

9 conservation department.

10 Q. And who authenticated and certificated the copies to say that they

11 were true to the original?

12 A. They were certified by Bruno and Colin, the UNESCO

13 representatives. They were also certified by our director and two other

14 colleagues who were in charge of the documents, Mr. Matko Betma, and Mrs.

15 Bozena Popic, that is to say the team that coordinated and dovetailed all

16 the material. If anything was left unclear, then this would be checked

17 out and a final version made.

18 Q. You will remember the damages that you describe in your own report

19 as you are the author of that report; isn't that right?

20 A. Well, 13 years have gone by since that time, but yes, I do confirm

21 the truthfulness of my written word.

22 Q. All right. Tell me, for example, were there any damages in the

23 old town from Siroka Street to the Church of Saint Blaise? Can you tell

24 us-- can you tell us, please, the Saint Blaise church -- from Siroka

25 Street to Saint Blaise church, what were the damages?

Page 17870

1 A. I know that the facade was damaged as well as the eastern

2 balustrade, the eastern part of the balustrade, by direct hit and that the

3 eastern relief carvings and decorations were damaged, underneath the

4 eastern window or on the window which bore The Hague Convention mark. And

5 I don't know how many other direct hits to the roof structure. So all

6 that has been recorded in diagram and in description of that, but I don't

7 want to make any mistakes as to the number.

8 Q. Now, you told us that they -- you attended a short ballistics

9 course of some kind. How were such minor damages able to be incurred by

10 direct hits? Because you say that there was a slight damage next to the

11 window and on the balustrade, et cetera. So how is it possible that if

12 there were direct hits by artillery pieces the damage would have been so

13 slight, of the type that you describe?

14 A. Well, I'm not an expert in that area. I'll leave it to the

15 forensic experts and the others. We did what we could to the best of our

16 professional capabilities.

17 Q. Now, all these damages, were they reconstructed in the period that

18 followed?

19 A. On the Saint Blaise church, yes, they were, everything was

20 reconstructed. But the static construction of the church itself, of the

21 Saint Blaise church, is still under way.

22 Q. Can you see the difference today between the undamaged portions

23 and the reconstructed portions of the buildings that you're talking about?

24 Generally speaking, to a professional.

25 A. Well, to professionals, yes, that would be quite obvious and

Page 17871












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17872

1 evident. You can see the difference. A trained eye would be able to see

2 the difference, and we have the documents to prove it, because those

3 things were no longer done by the same hand, the same artist in the same

4 century that the monument was originally built. But of course the

5 methodology and our profession, based on materials, a detailed selection

6 of identical types of stone, we have done our best to make it as close to

7 the original as possible.

8 As to the carvings on Saint Blaise church, I can tell you that

9 French experts were involved on that. And they were recommended to us by

10 the UNESCO experts. So it was these French reconstruction professionals

11 who worked on the church.

12 Q. Can I take it from that very extensive explanation that you have

13 just given us that it was -- that it is possible to compare the damages,

14 the reconstructions, with your reports and the authentic documents?

15 A. Yes. Everything was documented, and you would be able to find

16 everything in our files.

17 Q. You said that you assessed the calibre of the projectiles that

18 caused the direct hit damages.

19 A. Yes, as far as we were able to. As far as our knowledge allowed

20 us to.

21 Q. And that on the basis of the course you attended, the training

22 course?

23 A. Well, the training course wasn't that important. What was

24 important were the fragments of the projectiles that we found either on

25 the spot or that the people who found them had saved.

Page 17873

1 Q. So whose professional opinions are contained in your reports? I

2 assume not your own but other ballistic experts; right? Am I right if I

3 assume that -- in assuming that?

4 A. To the best of our ability, we incorporated what we learnt on the

5 basis of our training course. What we were not sure of we didn't mention

6 in our report.

7 Q. Now, you mention 120-millimetre calibres of mortars, shells, and

8 so on. Did you receive this information? Do you know what kind of damage

9 a 120-millimetre mortar shell would cause with a direct hit on a building

10 built three or four centuries ago, and a stone building at that?

11 A. We were able to see that on the spot, to learn that on the spot.

12 And once again, let me repeat: This can be seen from the report itself.

13 Q. Was Zvonimir Franic, did he attend that short ballistics course?

14 A. All our professional associates from the conservation department

15 in Dubrovnik attended the course.

16 Q. Well, on these photographs, the photographs that he attached

17 showing the damages, can we conclude that any type of damage -- well, I

18 wasn't able, actually, to see any damages, but you say that some are

19 visible. Could he say that some -- this was caused by shells targeting

20 the buildings?

21 A. Well, I don't think you should ask me about reports compiled by

22 others.

23 Q. Tell me, Mrs. Baca, is it your conviction that this whole affair

24 was abused quite a lot by the media, or taken advantage of by the media?

25 A. Our conservation department told the truth and nothing but the

Page 17874

1 truth. So in that sense, these reports were compiled on that basis.

2 Q. All right. And tell me this: In view of the fact that you were

3 born and bred in Dubrovnik and that you were present when all the events

4 took place, do you consider that anything of what you had described --

5 anything would have come of it had this 116th Brigade of the National

6 Guards Corps had been there that targeted the JNA positions around

7 Dubrovnik? Would any of this had happened had not that brigade been

8 there?

9 JUDGE MAY: Don't answer that. That's not a matter for the

10 witness. It may be a matter for us in due course to answer, but not for

11 the witness.

12 Now, Mr. Milosevic, you've had your time.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just have one more question.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can ask one more question.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mrs. Baca, you're a professional in the subject of the history of

17 art and art in general, I assume. You're a professional and you know what

18 "kitsch", the term "kitsch" means.

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Well, do you not feel, in the media sense, that this whole

21 Dubrovnik affair or incident could be referred to as "Dubrovnik kitsch"?

22 JUDGE MAY: No. That's not a proper question.

23 A. No.

24 MR. KAY: I have no questions, Your Honour.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I just want to clarify these

Page 17875

1 photos that were given to the witness. We have actually located it and it

2 is not an exhibit.

3 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

4 Q. Witness, you mentioned during the examination-in-chief that your

5 institute also documented damage outside of the old town, all over the

6 Dubrovnik city. Is that -- is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. And did you also visit the island of Lokrum and also document

9 damages at that island?

10 A. No. Not -- not me personally, no.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like now to show the witness the

12 complete report. It's from Mr. Franic, and it's related to the island of

13 Lokrum. And it has nothing to do with the old town and was not tendered

14 therefore.

15 JUDGE MAY: But it plainly is part of the damage, so --

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But it's not --

17 JUDGE MAY: Part of Dubrovnik.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, But it's not part of the report handed

19 to you.

20 JUDGE MAY: It's a separate report. It may be that the accused

21 will want it exhibited.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And we have here the B/C/S version of

23 Lokrum. Two buildings, actually, of Lokrum.

24 Q. If you would please look at this. And does that assist you in

25 assessing the damage of these two buildings?

Page 17876

1 A. Well, just like the ones so far, we come to the assessment of

2 damages, and under Miscellaneous, with the damage assessment, at the end

3 of each report it says the following, whether they were serious damages to

4 the structure, whether they were surface structural damages, less severe

5 structural damages. So we have an assessment of the damages, the

6 evaluation.

7 Q. And what is the evaluation in relation to these two buildings?

8 What category of damage is it?

9 A. The chapel of the Navjestenje, lesser structural damage to the

10 roof construction than the Lugar house. Serious structural damage to the

11 walls and roof structure, and the stability of the building has seriously

12 been impaired.

13 The Benedictine monastery: Grave structural impairment to the

14 bearing walls and part of the roof structure, load-bearing walls.

15 And then we have a diagram with the buildings as they are located

16 and a list of the hits, showing the hits.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to

18 tender this whole report.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What we'll do is we'll hand back the photographs

20 which the accused handed in, and we'll exhibit the report containing the

21 photographs but also the material. The question is, where do we put it?

22 It may be more convenient to put it in the binder that we've got already

23 and make -- give it another tab number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Prosecutor's Exhibit 408, tab 20.

25 Also, Your Honour, we have Prosecutor's Exhibit 326, tab 24 and tab 25.

Page 17877

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honour, these are the questions

2 that would conclude.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, I --


5 THE REGISTRAR: The correction, Your Honour, is Prosecutor's

6 Exhibit 326, tab 25 and tab 26. 24 is already admitted.

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baca, I believe you said somewhere between 60

9 to 70 per cent of the buildings were damaged. Do you have an estimate of

10 the cost, in financial terms, of the damage?

11 A. We didn't have at the time, but subsequently, after a separate

12 commission was set up attached to the Ministry of Culture for making up

13 lists and assessing the war damages, there are exact figures or financial

14 indicators about the damage.

15 As to the reconstruction work, the exact information on that, once

16 again, exists for everything that has already been reconstructed and the

17 funds used to finance -- funds and resources used to finance that

18 reconstruction. Documents exist on all that.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You don't have that information at hand?

20 A. Not at hand, no. But for the entire Dubrovnik region, the

21 Ministry of Culture does have the -- it has 14 binders of documents. It

22 has already been taped on CDs. And the complete documentation of the

23 reports relating to war damages for the whole of the territory of Croatia

24 has been handed over to the government of Croatia by the Ministry of

25 Culture.

Page 17878

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it would seem to me, in the

2 interests of completeness, this is information that you should get.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, first of all, in the -- in the

4 document from UNESCO that we had handed in, and it's tab 15, there is

5 actually -- in the beginning there is, on pages 2 to -- going through to

6 page 5, there is an estimate for each building, and there is,

7 unfortunately, not a calculation giving the global estimate, but there is

8 -- for each building there is an estimate. And we actually have listed

9 among the 92 bis witnesses a witness that would -- was supposed to address

10 this issue.

11 JUDGE MAY: Page 5 seems to have a global estimate. I'm not sure

12 if it's in -- I don't know what the figures are in.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour. It's a global estimate for

14 the ramparts. It's not a global estimate for the entire --

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That's for the ramparts.


17 JUDGE MAY: No doubt somebody can add these figures up at some

18 stage and give them to us.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We actually would prefer that, because

20 then we could drop the witness, the additional 92 bis witness if we could

21 just do that.

22 JUDGE MAY: Whatever way, we obviously would want this evidence

23 put in front of us.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Also, I wanted to find out from Ms. Baca whether

25 the repair work that is now going on, when will it be completed?

Page 17879

1 A. Some repair work will go on for years and years to come, dozens of

2 years. Some of them have already been completed. Depending on the

3 complexity of the repair work required and the financial resources

4 available.

5 For example, we are still repairing the complete Franciscan

6 monastery. Some of it has been completed. Most of the baroque palaces

7 have been repaired, most of them. So the restoration work will be an

8 ongoing process, continuous, depending on the funds and resources

9 available to Croatia, because everything is based on donations, small

10 donations, larger ones, and everything is, of course, financed by the

11 Republic of Croatia and predominantly the Minister of Culture within it.

12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is there any -- an assessment from you or the

13 experts that once the restoration is complete the old town will be

14 restored to its former glory and status as a cultural icon?

15 A. The town will not lose its status of cultural heritage. However,

16 the damages on the original buildings and the restoration of those

17 buildings will always be visible and evident regardless of the fact that

18 we use old ancient technologies, the same sorts of materials. It will

19 never be the work of one author and one hand. So it will be a cultural

20 heritage. That status will not be lost, or feature. However, the damages

21 and the documents show and make it clear -- will make it clear how far the

22 buildings are original and how far they have been repaired and restored.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

24 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Baca, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for

25 coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

Page 17880

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE MAY: We return to deal with the outstanding 92 bis

4 applications, the admissibility of written statements, and I said we would

5 begin with the three remaining Vukovar statements. We have not yet, I

6 should say, got the amici's observations on the transcript evidence. It's

7 somewhere in the machinery and it's coming through to us.

8 MR. KAY: Right.

9 JUDGE MAY: So we're not really in a position to deal with that.

10 Briefly, what is your position about these transcripts, just to help us?

11 MR. KAY: The Dokmanovic transcripts we're referring to now.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 MR. KAY: The issue there is perhaps JNA involvement. It can be

14 properly described globally as not going to acts and conduct of the

15 accused. The issue at the end of the day is whether he should be allowed

16 to question, to deal with those allegations concerning the JNA. The

17 Prosecution motion seeks admission under 92 bis (D) without questioning

18 under 92 bis (E).

19 It's at the discretion of the Trial Chamber whether those

20 transcripts are admitted, but in view of the conduct of the defence by the

21 accused and the issues that concern him, we set out a number of points

22 that are of obvious importance to him in the conduct of his case in

23 challenging the evidence. And if the Trial Chamber uses its discretion,

24 the live issue then remains as to questioning upon the issues of the JNA.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We're not going to determine the issue as

Page 17881












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17882

1 to the transcripts. We will return to that next week. I think you're not

2 going to be here, was it, on Monday?

3 MR. KAY: That's right, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will deal with it after that. But we will

5 give everybody the opportunity to address us upon it.

6 MR. KAY: If I can just mention that one of these witnesses in the

7 Dokmanovic transcripts also appears in the 92 bis written. I see Judge

8 Kwon nodding. He probably has found that already. 1171.

9 JUDGE KWON: 1171.

10 MR. KAY: Yes.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll obviously leave that one out for the

12 moment. But let us consider the two statements that we reserved. That

13 was C-1071, C-1164, C-1149, all connected with Vukovar, and remind

14 ourselves.

15 1149, I think I raised this before, I had a recollection that this

16 witness gave evidence in Dokmanovic, but I think that the Prosecution

17 assured me that wasn't so. This witness describes the shelling. He was

18 detained in Stajicevo camp where he was able to fulfil a function. Yes.

19 Perhaps, Mr. Kay, you first and the Prosecution can respond.

20 MR. KAY: Yes. Having read this statement, we found the summary

21 highly inaccurate as to the content of the statement. We found it very

22 difficult to reconcile. And in the schedule that we filed, we have made

23 those observations. And the terms of his statement we found very unclear

24 as to the specifics as to where he was.

25 JUDGE MAY: So what is your submission in relation to that?

Page 17883

1 MR. KAY: It's a problem statement. I am unable to say to the

2 Court that it fits into the pattern that's being alleged because it is

3 very imprecise as to its detail.

4 JUDGE MAY: So you would oppose letting it in at all.

5 MR. KAY: Yes. It's very difficult to reconcile. Perhaps it's

6 one that should be left out of the picture.

7 JUDGE MAY: Then let us go on to deal with, while we're at it and

8 you're on your feet, the other two.

9 1071, this is a statement -- it seems to me it deals very largely,

10 as I said earlier, with the efforts of someone to find their spouse who

11 has disappeared. It really didn't seem to me to be controversial, but I

12 may be wrong.

13 MR. KAY: No. It's cumulative and uncontroversial, as Your Honour

14 describes. It deals with a specific area referred to as Rupe, but it's

15 not something that I could specifically point out to the Trial Chamber

16 that contains difficulties. There is passing reference to the JNA.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, just dealing with those two,

19 if you would.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I would only deal with C-1144,

21 Mr. Mala. The fact that a witness doesn't mention a certain date but

22 refers to an incident in Borovo Selo during which policemen were killed, I

23 mean, there is no inconsistency or no vagueness about it because we know

24 which incident we -- is talked about, and that the witness doesn't mention

25 the date, I mean, there is no doubt it's the incident where the Croatian

Page 17884

1 policemen were killed in Borovo Selo.

2 JUDGE KWON: Are we dealing with 1144 now?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 1144 -- 1149. Sorry. 1149. And the other

4 point that the witness doesn't know the exact name of the camp he was in,

5 but from the context it's clear that it is the Stajicevo camp, I don't see

6 that there is any confusion or vagueness in the statement as such. The

7 name and the exact date is not what the witness is really testifying

8 about.

9 JUDGE MAY: He didn't give evidence in Dokmanovic, this one.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, he did not. He did not.

11 JUDGE MAY: All right. We must remember that. Yes.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But he refers to events that, even when the

13 date is missing or an exact location name is missing, they were clear and

14 were addressed by various witnesses, including Mr. Mesic, Mr.

15 Anastasijevic, Mr. Grujic, and first of all, Ms. Bosanac.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MAY: Let us deal with that first one. We think, having

18 looked at the statement, if there are doubts about it or it's said that

19 it's not clear, those are matters which can be clarified in

20 cross-examination, so we'll admit with cross-examination. It meets the

21 criteria otherwise.

22 Now, would you deal with 1071, please, which I've referred to

23 already.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think I have already given the position of

25 the Prosecution earlier when we talked about this. There is nothing that

Page 17885

1 in our opinion would make it necessary to have a cross-examination of the

2 witness. And the fact that witnesses refer to the JNA, that does not per

3 se mean there needs to be cross-examination, particularly not in light of

4 the fact that other witnesses who speak about the situations already

5 mentioned JNA.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: What is the value of this evidence?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's actually the Lovas farm incident, and

8 the husband of this witness is a victim of it. It gives additional facts

9 in relation to the Lovas farm.

10 JUDGE MAY: It's another -- a further area. Not, of course, the

11 minefield incident.


13 JUDGE MAY: But another camp.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's the farm, yes.

15 JUDGE MAY: Farm/camp.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE MAY: We will admit. We think the accused should have the

18 ability to cross-examine.

19 Mr. Milosevic, I've overlooked your submission. If you want to

20 say anything about those two witnesses, you can. What we're inclined to

21 do is to admit them without -- with cross-examination.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, may I say something about

23 all these proposals which have been given under 92 bis?

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I assume that it is quite logical

Page 17886

1 that you realise that for me to be able to establish whether this is what

2 you call cumulative statements and implement these rules of yours I would

3 need to be able to read through all those statements to be able to say

4 anything about them at all.

5 So will you please place on the ELMO the report you told me to

6 look at. I received it the day before yesterday. And if it was given and

7 put in one of my associates' lockers a couple of weeks ago, it doesn't

8 change anything.

9 So will you please put this on the ELMO, the report that you

10 received at your request from the other side in connection with the

11 documents that I have received, and you will see what it looks like, what

12 my situation is like.

13 JUDGE MAY: We have to deal with these statements. Now, we have

14 to deal with them now. You were given warning last week and again this

15 morning -- I mean again this week that we would be dealing with these

16 statements. So you or your associates have had the opportunity to look at

17 them and make specific submissions. Now, do you want to say anything

18 about these two statements?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, under the 92 bis

20 statements, not only is it suggested that they be admitted whereby the

21 possibility for me to cross-examine is radically being curtailed, but also

22 all the additional exhibits related to those statements should be

23 admitted. And if the cross-examination is reduced to an hour or so that

24 you allow me is reduced to something absurd. And you have heard Mr. Nice

25 say several times, for instance -- for instance, "The accused has not

Page 17887

1 challenged this or that." Now, whether I challenge something is no

2 explanation for challenging or not challenging, because I challenge the

3 whole indictment. It's a question of time.

4 In one of the documents he has filed, for instance, he said in the

5 opening statements did he not challenge Foca. Now, just imagine that. In

6 the opening statement for which you gave me three hours relating to two

7 civil wars, and he comes to the conclusion that I didn't mention Foca,

8 whereas in fact, I had to select the most important general issues.

9 So what are we talking about? On the one hand, we are flooded

10 with documents, even though you won't put it on the ELMO. It is close to

11 350.000, according to my estimate 400.000, not counting the thousands of

12 video and audiotapes. And under those circumstances and ever since the

13 beginning, up until February last year when the Kosovo case started, just

14 look. There's almost nothing. And then suddenly, as soon as Kosovo case

15 developed and we were focusing on it, then suddenly we get this enormous

16 pile, going up to 330 or 40 thousand pages, according to their estimate.

17 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you now. We are not discussing that

18 report. We will come to discuss it in due course. What we're discussing

19 are these statements.

20 Now, as to your point as to time for cross-examination, that will

21 be set. But of course, it will vary if there are many documents or

22 exhibits. These witnesses, for instance, I don't think produce any

23 exhibits at all. If a witness does produce exhibits, particularly a

24 voluminous number, why, then, we'll give you a longer time. But that is

25 not a matter which is of importance at the moment. It may be.

Page 17888

1 Now, we'll admit these with cross-examination, and we'll go on to

2 one more, I think, from Vukovar, which is 1164. The witness deals with

3 the shelling of Vukovar. She was arrested by JNA reservists, she was in

4 one of the camps.

5 I suspect that the Trial Chamber may be minded to admit with

6 cross-examination.

7 Mr. Kay.

8 MR. KAY: Yes. Within the rules it's cumulative, and that point

9 has been made by us, but there is reference within the statement to the

10 JNA, which is an important issue to the accused in the conduct of his

11 case, and in those circumstances, we've got no further observations to

12 make because it deals with Vukovar in the same form as other witnesses.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, do you want to say anything about this

14 one?

15 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: Didn't get you.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do I -- I understand you correctly

18 that you're not challenging my right to cross-examine?

19 JUDGE MAY: Not in this case at the moment, although we've got to

20 hear from the Prosecution, of course.

21 Yes.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. We request admitting this

23 statement without cross-examination, because it's -- it's just cumulative

24 evidence, and the fact that the JNA is mentioned, a lot of witnesses

25 mention the involvement of the JNA in the fighting in Vukovar, and I doubt

Page 17889

1 that this is in dispute.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. There are issues which arise in the Vukovar part

4 of the case to do with the role of the JNA, and we therefore think it

5 right that the accused should have the opportunity to cross-examine. On

6 the other hand, clearly this is a statement which is cumulative, fits

7 within the requirements of Rule 92 bis, so we will admit it with

8 cross-examination.

9 The next two statements which I said we would deal with are

10 contained in an addendum dated the 26th of February, the fourth addendum,

11 and that involves a Mr. Josipovic who deals with the attack on Dubica.

12 C-1156 dealing again with Vukovar.

13 Yes.

14 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we made a specific filing in relation to

15 this on the 5th of March, dealing with both witnesses and the matters

16 raised by the Prosecution in their application. It may be helpful for the

17 Trial Chamber, if it needs it, just to read those submissions, because

18 there's quite a bit of detail in relation to the one Josipovic.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have read them, but it may be helpful just to

20 summarise them briefly for the purpose of the oral argument so that

21 everyone has them.

22 MR. KAY: Yes. The basis of the Prosecution is that this was

23 testimony by Josipovic that was cumulative of evidence given by the

24 witness Babic, and the basis for that was that Babic had been an

25 eyewitness to particular events that were happening in Bacin.

Page 17890

1 We went back to the original transcript of Babic's evidence, and I

2 have set out in the reply by us his specific evidence on this issue, which

3 I submit makes the point that he wasn't declaring himself to be an

4 eyewitness but this was an assumption by the questioner, if the transcript

5 is studied. And in those circumstances, there has been no evidence on

6 this matter before the Trial Chamber in an acceptable form that can cause

7 the cumulative phrase to be used, and in our submission, this witness

8 should be called in the usual way.

9 As for Mesic, the same point cannot be made in relation to that

10 witness, and there are no observations to be made to pick that out in any

11 particular way.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, anything you want to say about these

13 two?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it's quite obvious that the

15 arguments put forward, according to which you can't accept them as 92 bis,

16 are sufficient. If the other side wishes to present the witness, the

17 witness has to come in here and testify and not to be included, according

18 to this rule of yours, as some kind of cumulative witness.

19 And secondly, I don't think you bear in mind the fact that when we

20 proceed with your rules, Rule 92 bis, then we have several witnesses in

21 one day, which would require far greater -- a far greater need to have all

22 the documents reviewed rather than when we just have one witness or a

23 witness per day, a witness live here per day.

24 So this is the road to curtailing the possibility of telling the

25 truth in this courtroom here, this inundation with papers, flooding us

Page 17891












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Page 17892

1 with papers and formal explanations about events that took place in the

2 civil war in Bosnia, in Croatia, which have been shown to be highly

3 biased, prejudiced and one-sided. And that is where the sense of this

4 false indictment lies, this false indictment bringing forth this kind of

5 witness.

6 So all my comments are in objection to what you have been

7 discussing. And as you yourselves are professional legal men, will be

8 able to conclude and decide whether there is even an "F" of the fair play

9 between the two parties let alone the equality of arms and other

10 principles that you're very proud of pursuing.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, first of all, Mr. Babic was not

13 the only one who mentioned what happened in Dubica. We had here the

14 Witness C-1141, Mr. Kucak, who also described the events in Dubica before

15 the attack and after the attack, but he was not present during the attack

16 and therefore could not give the details of this sequence.

17 In addition, we had Mr. Grujic who mentioned also the results of

18 the attacks here, the killing of the people that are part of the

19 indictment, and we will also hear today and tomorrow Dr. Strinovic who

20 will also refer to the events in Dubica.

21 Therefore, I think it is cumulative for most of its part and,

22 therefore, the Prosecution would request to admit this witness 92 bis, but

23 we would say that cross-examination should be allowed because there are a

24 lot of details that he would be the only one to speak about.

25 In relation to the Witness C-1156, I mean there is no objection to

Page 17893

1 have him come in 92 bis, but we believe that, given the fact that it is

2 fully cumulative, it should be without cross-examination.

3 JUDGE MAY: Just, if you would, look at page 11 of his statement,

4 top paragraph.




8 JUDGE MAY: He gives -- it may be that the details of what

9 happened at Ovcara are not really in dispute, they don't seem to be, but

10 he does refer there to admissions made by others, it's got to be said,

11 about what happened there. It's a question of whether cross-examination

12 should be allowed on that or not.

13 JUDGE KWON: Is he not the first JNA officer who appears before

14 this trial telling the Vukovar story?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this would be the first witness

16 who appears here who is from the JNA in relation to Vukovar. We have some

17 more under the 92 bis (D) motion, but he would indeed be the first.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MAY: We will admit both. We think that both of them are

20 cumulative. Certainly the Vukovar witness and indeed the first witness is

21 cumulative of these alleged killings. We've had evidence of them.

22 Whether it's the very precise location it seems to me doesn't really

23 matter. It's the general nature and tone of the evidence, which it has to

24 be cumulative.

25 But in any event, we will admit but with cross-examination in both

Page 17894

1 cases.

2 Just help me, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff -- it's almost time for the

3 break. There's one -- the other witness that you have, how long do you

4 anticipate being with him?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would think one and a half -- one hour and

6 a half for the most.


8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That would be maximum. I assume it could be

9 faster, but he has to address a lot of crime scenes, and he has actually

10 compiled photos so that he can explain the cause of death for certain

11 people. So my estimate would be one and a half hours.

12 JUDGE MAY: We would be able, if we didn't start him until

13 tomorrow morning, we'd be able to -- we'd be able to finish him tomorrow,

14 which should be the objective.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But I don't know -- I saw yesterday, of

16 course, the detailed questioning of Ms. Ranta, and if really people would

17 like to go into details of the exhumation reports, it would take later --

18 longer, but I do not really expect this because it's a different

19 situation.

20 JUDGE MAY: Well, perhaps the sensible thing would be -- I would

21 like to make a start on these Dubrovnik witnesses, because we've got so

22 many to cover, and if we don't make a start, I don't know when we'll get

23 back to it. It may be a sensible idea to take half the next session on

24 Dubrovnik and then call the witness, start his evidence off, and then, if

25 necessary, we could finish tomorrow.

Page 17895

1 You won't be here tomorrow. That's the problem.

2 MR. KAY: No.

3 JUDGE MAY: All right. We'll see how we get on. We'll take the

4 break now and we'll see how much progress we can make through Dubrovnik.

5 But obviously we have to make sure that we get the witness in.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

8 JUDGE MAY: We'll make what progress we can through these

9 Dubrovnik witnesses for half an hour or so and then we'll have the witness

10 in in order that we can be sure of completing him.

11 It may be we could begin by dealing with them in numerical order,

12 if that's convenient, as convenient as any way of dealing with them.

13 1066 is the first one I have, deals with the shelling of Mlini,

14 the looting of a shop, and his detention in Morinje camp.

15 1082 is the pathologist for the Dubrovnik area who performed

16 autopsies on 36, it seems.

17 1083 deals with the shelling of Dubrovnik on the 1st to the 6th of

18 October.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, can I interrupt you?

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It may be helpful if I would tell you which

22 request we withdraw, because then you wouldn't need to address these. And

23 actually, the first one is C-1083. We would not -- we want to drop him.

24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the next person we want to drop is

Page 17896

1 C-1095, Mr. Draskovic. The next person to drop is C-1105, Mr. Ferlan.

2 The next person, 1122, Mr. Ivic. And actually we had considered to also

3 drop, and he was not on the list of numbers you gave, C-1227, Mr. Vierda,

4 but that seems to be actually the person that the Judges would be

5 interested in because he is the director of the Institute for Restoration,

6 and he gave a number of 9 million -- 9 billion -- million -- no.

7 9.657.000 US dollars, and he also could speak about the current situation

8 in relation to restoration. If the Judges are interested in this, Your

9 Honours, we would keep him; otherwise, our idea was to drop this person.

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think we might be. Perhaps we could deal with

11 him as a separate issue. He's the director, you say, of the Institute of

12 Restoration, and he deals with the costs.


14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. But I dealt with 1066, 1082. 1088 is -- deals

15 with the shelling in October 1991. The damage, I think he says, to a

16 number of churches. I forget. He deals with the damage shown in Cavtat;

17 is that right, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff? Make sure I've got the right one.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And as we have dropped 1095, he would be the

19 only one to give details on Cavtat.

20 JUDGE MAY: And 1092, may we deal with that batch together. 1092

21 is -- he is the museum director, I think in Konavle. I may be wrong about

22 that. He is the museum director. Perhaps again you could help me where

23 he is director.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. It's a she, and she is the

25 museum director, and she is actually the person who would speak about the

Page 17897

1 cultural monuments that were destroyed in the entire Konavle region.


3 JUDGE KWON: Konavle is the name of a region. Is Dubrovnik

4 included there?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, it's the entire region south of Dubrovnik

6 but it's part of the Dubrovnik municipality.

7 JUDGE KWON: Including Cavtat and the airport, et cetera.


9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MAY: Shall we deal with that group, Mr. Kay, the 1066, who

11 was the shelling of Mlini, if I've pronounced it right, and the looting of

12 a shop.

13 MR. KAY: Yes.

14 JUDGE MAY: It deals with the detention also.

15 MR. KAY: The detention being a new issue, cumulative on the

16 Dubrovnik shelling. There is a passing reference to the accused but not

17 in any specific or precise way. It's just a general reference which --

18 "We smelled the trouble in 1989 with the speech of Milosevic in Kosovo." I

19 don't think that that's a matter of any importance in relation to the

20 evidence if the Trial Chamber agreed.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. It would seem to me, or we could strike it out,

22 simply edit that sentence out.

23 MR. KAY: Yes. There is reference to the JNA, as indeed in all of

24 them, and the role of the JNA.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 17898

1 MR. KAY: So if the Court was to exercise its discretion on the

2 basis of the cumulative nature of the evidence, we would make the point

3 that cross-examination should be permitted as a result of those references

4 to the JNA, which is an important issue within the case.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MAY: The next one is 1082, the pathologist. Any objection

7 to admitting that? Any need for any cross-examination that you can see?

8 MR. KAY: No. This is cumulative in relation to the evidence that

9 is to be heard from the witness Strinovic.

10 JUDGE MAY: He simply deals with the autopsies of a number of

11 bodies; 36 in all.

12 MR. KAY: Yes.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE MAY: Let's deal, if we may, Mr. Kay, with the next two.

15 We've got the pathologist, and then we've got 1088, details of damage in

16 Cavtat. 1092, the museum director who deals with the damage of Konavle.

17 If you would deal with those two.

18 MR. KAY: Again, cumulative on the evidence concerning Dubrovnik

19 and the region, but references to the JNA. In 1088, it's JNA entering

20 Cavtat.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And the other one?

22 MR. KAY: On 1092, we've heard quite a bit of evidence of the

23 damage to buildings, but this is specific to the area of Konavle and

24 damage to Cilipi.

25 One of the difficulties is that attached reports are not in

Page 17899

1 English. They are in B/C/S. I'm not sure if translations have been

2 served of those documents to date. I have not been able to trace them if

3 they have. I think I'm right in still asserting that.

4 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's clear that up now.

5 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, can you help with that?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Ms. Dicklich has to check that first.

7 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's --

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm not aware. I can't answer that now.

9 JUDGE MAY: Clearly there should be a document served in English.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kay, ultimately what is your position?

12 MR. KAY: The position is that there is fresh evidence concerning

13 cultural destruction in Konavle and Cilipi which the Court may want to

14 hear about. This is all around the area of Dubrovnik.

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: That goes to the witness being called live.

16 MR. KAY: Yes. There are references to the JNA which would go to

17 the issue of cross-examination, in my submission.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff, what happened in Konavle and

19 Cavtat? Is it included in the indictment?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE KWON: Could you give me the paragraph number?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. There is a paragraph listing all the

23 villages. It's paragraph 81. And actually, Mr. Poljanic, the witness

24 Poljanic had testified to the destruction in these places and has actually

25 discussed a huge amount of exhibits related to destruction in these

Page 17900

1 places. So it would be cumulative. It -- because we had these reports,

2 these police reports documenting damage and giving also the pictures of

3 damaged buildings in these regions.

4 JUDGE KWON: But it's not included in Dubrovnik shelling,

5 beginning with paragraph 73.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's -- it's the last paragraph, actually.

7 It's the region giving three regions and then specific places in the

8 regions.

9 JUDGE MAY: Have we got an answer on whether the English is

10 available?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, the English is available, and -- it

12 should have been. It should have been disclosed. I'm sorry if it wasn't

13 done, but it will be done right away.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE MAY: Have we mentioned the museum director? I think we

16 have.

17 MR. KAY: We have. That's 1092.

18 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, you've got three witnesses here --

19 four witnesses. They include the pathologist. If there is any reason why

20 you should cross-examine him, we'll hear what you say the reason is. Then

21 we'll have the museum director from Konavle, and a man -- or a witness,

22 rather, from Cavtat who gives details of the damage.

23 Now, is there any reason why you need to cross-examine any of

24 those? Is there anything in issue as far as they're concerned?

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I don't know whether there

Page 17901












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17902

1 is any point of us discussing this. You keep avoiding the basic issue,

2 which is the time required for preparation. A moment ago, you wouldn't

3 even consider all the documents that have been served on me. How can I

4 answer the question whether there's any reason to cross-examine when I

5 don't know? Nor did I have any physical possibility to examine these

6 documents. I think this is a farce and nothing more than that.

7 You have told me that you would allow me the right to defence, but

8 you are preventing that right by not giving me adequate time to at least

9 read through the documents that are being produced in large numbers on a

10 daily basis. So there's no point in asking me this.

11 JUDGE MAY: You had notice earlier this week and last week,

12 indeed, that we were going to deal with these specific witnesses. Now,

13 that gives you time to get out these statements and look at them, and you

14 had it.

15 Now, you haven't chosen to take that opportunity. We will

16 consider the position.

17 As for the question of the amount of documentation, I can assure

18 you that is a matter to which we will be returning in due course. But as

19 you will appreciate, there are a number of other issues which we have to

20 deal with in this case.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But that issue cannot be separated

22 from this one. That's the whole point, Mr. May.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. By a majority of 2 to 1, the Trial Chamber will

25 admit the evidence of the pathologist, Judge Robinson dissenting. The

Page 17903

1 view of the majority is this: That this is a totally non-controversial

2 witness who merely examines bodies. The accused has had every opportunity

3 to read these statements and has declined to do so and no injustice to him

4 will be caused by the -- not cross-examining the witness, there being no

5 issue raised about what he says, as indeed the amici have suggested.

6 In relation to 1066, we will admit under Rule 92 bis but we accept

7 that there are issues there of controversy concerned with the JNA and we

8 will therefore allow cross-examination.

9 We will reserve 1088 and 1092.

10 Now, we'll try and do some more. 1227. Let us look at 1227, who

11 is the director of restoration who you were thinking of withdrawing,

12 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, but you say that the Trial Chamber may find it useful

13 to have that witness's evidence.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MAY: So it's either a question of -- you would say it's

16 either a question that we admit it or it will be withdrawn. So we'll have

17 -- he deals -- he's the director of the Institute for Restoration. He

18 deals with shelling and destruction and the costs of restoration and the

19 time for completion. So these were issues which the Trial Chamber was

20 raising this morning.

21 Mr. Kay, can you help us as to that one?

22 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour. There is reference to the JNA within

23 this statement.

24 JUDGE MAY: Well, suppose we cut out the reference to the JNA,

25 just edit the statement and deal with the costs of restoration, which

Page 17904

1 can't be controversial.

2 MR. KAY: I can't see a problem with that then.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well. We'll -- we'll have him withdrawn.

5 But thank you for raising the matter. He can be withdrawn, 1227.

6 Now, that leaves - in ten minutes - 1122. We'll look at that,

7 which is -- was he withdrawn? I thought it was 1112.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour, 1122. 1122.

9 JUDGE MAY: And what about 1112?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We would like to keep him. He's a priest.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I marked the wrong one then.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He is a priest who will speak about the

13 effect on the churches in Dubrovnik. And he also had a conversation with

14 an officer, a JNA officer, about this shelling campaign.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, can you help us with 1112?

16 MR. KAY: Yes, at tab 22. Fitting cumulative within the Dubrovnik

17 area, but there is the JNA issue which, in our submission, should entitle

18 the accused to cross-examination, if the Trial Chamber is minded to admit

19 the statement under 92 bis.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MAY: We will reserve on this one.

22 MR. KAY: Just the other issue that I should have mentioned on

23 that, and I apologise as it slipped my mind. There was the issue of

24 whether there were any weapons within Dubrovnik, which is on the last page

25 of this witness's statement.

Page 17905

1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will reserve on that.

2 1127, he's something to do with the summer festival, but his

3 evidence includes the use of civilian targets and sniper fire.

4 Mr. Kay.

5 MR. KAY: And the JNA navy is referred to within this statement at

6 page 4. Very strong issues there we would say that the accused should

7 have a right to challenge to in viva voce testimony.

8 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, in relation to these references

10 to the JNA, I think the situation in Dubrovnik is a different one from the

11 one in Vukovar, because in Vukovar it is a question to which extent the

12 JNA did participate. But in relation to Dubrovnik, there is no dispute,

13 as far as I understand it, that they were the one conducting the campaign.

14 JUDGE MAY: Nature of the campaign which is said to be in issue

15 and who started it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but that's not actually something the

17 witnesses refer to. They simply say what the JNA did, and that is --

18 seems to be not in dispute. It's only the question whether Dubrovnik and

19 the region was a military target, a legitimate military target.

20 MR. KAY: I would point out to the Trial Chamber at page 3, it's

21 referred to as "JNA aggression."

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MAY: We will reserve on this one.

24 1133. I think we can perhaps do two more.

25 This is a member of the defence of a village, deals with the JNA

Page 17906

1 attack, little resistance. He was detained. It deals with his

2 mistreatment.

3 Yes, Mr. Kay. Is the fact that he was a member of the defence

4 relevant?

5 MR. KAY: Yes, and the issue here is the JNA occupation of his

6 village, as it's described, within his statement at page 4. A very

7 detailed statement dealing with the conflict between the two opposing

8 sides. The Dubrovnik issue is -- in relation to its shelling, is

9 cumulative, but it's the surrounding issues and the JNA attack on Slano.

10 There was also a translation issue in relation to certain of the

11 documents that were annexed that still need to be included.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will admit this but with cross-examination.

14 1139. My note is this witness was part of the Croatian naval

15 defence, deals with the shelling of the old town, the JNA controlling --

16 gaining control of the area, deals with the military presence, Croat

17 military presence. Again, it would appear to be one which should be

18 admitted but with cross-examination.

19 Would you agree?

20 MR. KAY: Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: Admit with cross-examination.

22 We will do one more. 1159, a reserve policeman, JNA occupation of

23 the village, detained and mistreated. The amicus says it's fresh evidence

24 which should be given live. It seems that's another for admission with

25 cross-examination.

Page 17907

1 MR. KAY: Yes. Gromaca was the fresh evidence so far as we were

2 able to find.

3 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. I'm sorry, I haven't given you a

4 chance. What would you like to say about this?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: If Gromaca is the point that would make

6 cross-examination necessary, we would actually say that the paragraphs 7

7 and 8 of the statement could be withdrawn, because Gromaca is actually not

8 a place mentioned in the indictment. So we allow for that. But if -- but

9 we would, of course, still request admittance without cross-examination.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE MAY: We will reserve on that one.

12 1173 would be the last one. Yes. We could perhaps deal with that

13 quickly.

14 Yes, Mr. Kay.

15 MR. KAY: Former deputy mayor of Dubrovnik, so may well be issues

16 here relating to what he would know or had taken part in in relation to

17 these events. Very clear allegations about the JNA, beatings between

18 Dubrovnik defenders.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, didn't we hear from the mayor

21 already?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We actually had the mayor here, and this is

23 actually the second -- the person second, more or less, in the position --

24 in rank in Dubrovnik.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Do we need him? What does he add?

Page 17908

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: What he adds is he was -- took part in most

2 of the negotiations. While Mr. Poljanic only participated in the

3 beginning, this man was actually present during all the negotiations with

4 the JNA.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: I see. Okay.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MAY: We will admit him but with cross-examination. Those

8 negotiations were subject to cross-examination, and the accused should

9 have the benefit to do that.

10 Very well. We'll --

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there is an oversight. There is

12 one more witness related to Dubrovnik in the 92 bis submissions, and that

13 is number 1221, Bozidar Trklja. He is a camp -- he is a detainee. He is

14 from the region, and he was detained in various camps, and he was also

15 maltreated seriously. He is also from Dubrovnik.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And he's not in good health. I seem to have

17 made a note. I've got a note that he says he's in poor health.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm not aware of this at the moment.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I think you'll find it if you read the

20 statement.

21 Yes, Mr. Kay.

22 MR. KAY: If I can just turn to that.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course.

24 MR. KAY: Yes. This witness dealt with the Dubrovnik Crisis

25 Committee and weapons that they had being anti-aircraft weapons and the

Page 17909

1 fact that they were used. Dealing very much with the JNA attack. So

2 there are issues here in relation to his involvement. He was directed to

3 drive to the harbour to pick up two anti-aircraft cannons. So clear

4 issues here that the accused may -- may well want to deal with in

5 cross-examination.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE MAY: We will reserve this one. We must have the witness in

8 now. I've got three more which I've noted which seem to be connected with

9 -- three more connected with Dubrovnik; C-1210, C-1197. Perhaps we can

10 return to them. And also one about which I have a query, which is C-1213,

11 a Mr. Stringer, and I can't remember whether you said anything in relation

12 to him, whether there were any comments about him and whether you were

13 going to call him. I can't remember.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm not sure of this now, but I don't think

15 so.

16 JUDGE MAY: You don't think so. Well, it may be that I've

17 confused him with somebody else. Anyway, we will try and discuss those

18 three in the next -- well, perhaps next week sometime when Mr. Kay is

19 back.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I just checked. We actually

21 have dropped this witness. We have not included him in our submission,

22 and we don't want to call him, Mr. Stringer.

23 JUDGE MAY: Somehow I had that in the back of my mind but I

24 couldn't put my finger on it. Very well. So he's withdrawn.

25 Can we have the witness, please.

Page 17910

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the witness would take the declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

11 Q. Dr. Strinovic, would you please state your name for the record.

12 A. Davor Strinovic.

13 Q. What is your profession and current position?

14 A. I'm a specialist of forensic medicine at the Institute for

15 Forensic Medicine at the University in Zagreb, and also I am an associate

16 professor at the faculty of medicine of Zagreb University.

17 Q. You have been a forensic pathologist since 1980; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. And you have submitted a written report on your findings related

20 to the conflict in Croatia in 1991 and the following years?

21 A. Yes.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to

23 tender this report, this expert report, and its attachments.

24 JUDGE MAY: Where am I finding this?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This was actually filed with the Registry and

Page 17911












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Page 17912

1 was submitted on the 5th of February, 2003.

2 JUDGE MAY: Was it filed as an expert report?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. It was an expert report of

4 Dr. Strinovic, dealing with the forensic findings.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll get the next exhibit number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecutor's Exhibit number 409, Your Honour.


8 Q. In your expert report, in paragraph 1, you mentioned publications

9 and books that you wrote. Are there any books or papers in these

10 publications dealing with exhumations and identification?

11 A. In addition to the books listed here, in two of those books, one

12 for students of forensic medicine and for jurists, there is a chapter on

13 identification. And under that heading, there is also a heading of mass

14 -- large-scale disasters covering identification under wartime conditions.

15 Furthermore, I would like to point out that, together with other

16 colleagues, I have issued more than 20 scientific papers on victims of war

17 and identification. I participated at international congresses, and I

18 would also add that three weeks ago a large conference ended in Geneva,

19 organised by the International Red Cross, linked to missing persons. And

20 87 countries were represented at this conference, and most of them had the

21 same problem of missing persons.

22 I should like to note that in preparation for that conference that

23 I attended, a paper was prepared which in fact represents a proposal as to

24 how missing persons should be processed in the future, including the

25 question of identification and the establishment of the cause of death.

Page 17913

1 And this is the most recent event linked to the International Red Cross

2 and recommendations issued by that institution regarding missing persons

3 in the world.

4 Q. And you mention in paragraph 4 of your report that since 1991

5 until the present day, you participated in the work of the government

6 Commission for Detained and Missing People, and that's the same office

7 that Colonel Grujic is the head of, is that so?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. What was your task within this commission?

10 A. My task was to coordinate a medical team in the process of

11 exhumation and identification so that after being informed of a planned

12 exhumation of a gravesite, I organised a medical team that would be

13 present at each exhumation, and I also organised a team of medical experts

14 to engage in identification on site or later on, subsequently.

15 Q. In relation to your work throughout the years, from 1991 to today,

16 was there any difference in your work regarding the time period before

17 1995 and after?

18 A. Yes, certainly. Until 1995, my job in the government commission

19 consisted of attending meetings and preparing meetings for detained and

20 missing persons, both on the Serbian and on the Croatian side. And many

21 problems were reviewed at those meetings linked to the war situation.

22 In that period, that is from 1991 until 1995, there were very few

23 exhumations and identifications, so that the work mostly consisted of

24 meetings and preparations for the work that would be done later on.

25 Q. And from 1995 onwards, you then were more involved in the

Page 17914

1 exhumation?

2 A. Yes, that is right.

3 Q. You mentioned that -- that you worked with a similar commission

4 from Yugoslavia. Since when were talks with commissions from Yugoslavia

5 held?

6 A. As far as I know, those negotiations started in December 1991.

7 And I attended such a meeting for the first time at the beginning of 1992.

8 The negotiations were first held in Pecuh, in Hungary, and later on in

9 Budapest, also in Hungary.

10 Q. Can you describe the cooperation with the SFRY or FRY personnel in

11 relation to exhumations, autopsies, and identification, just very briefly

12 how this cooperation functioned and whether you applied the same

13 methodology.

14 A. As I've already said, the cooperation started in 1991 to 1995,

15 when we met to solve problems linked to missing persons, that is to say,

16 the information we had. And after 1995, the business of exhumations

17 started, larger exhumations took place, and our cooperation continued.

18 And I can tell you, for example, in the case of Ovcara, that cooperation

19 consisted of the fact that the representatives of Croatia and Serbia were

20 present during the entire exhumation process, which lasted about 45 days

21 in all. And after that, because this job was done by the international

22 experts for the needs of The Hague Tribunal, both sides were present when

23 the autopsies took place and this overall procedure, which was ongoing for

24 the next three months.

25 So as I say, cooperation in these cases was related to monitoring.

Page 17915

1 We monitored what the international experts were doing, and I mentioned

2 the Ovcara example in particular.

3 Q. I actually wanted to know whether this cooperation was fruitful or

4 whether you had disputes about methodology or results. Is there -- can

5 you tell us?

6 A. Well, I would put it this way: The problems were mostly linked to

7 organisational matters, rather, the lists of missing persons, the quest

8 for the graves, the search for graves and so on. That's where the job

9 went more slowly. But as to the professional expertise and identification

10 and methodology used there, we didn't have any problems in that regard.

11 That is to say that experts in both our two countries agreed that the

12 methods applied were the suitable methods that were usually used, so

13 cooperation was good. No problems there.

14 Q. Did you also take part in exhumations and identifications

15 conducted by international teams; and if so, was this the same methodology

16 that you also applied?

17 A. Yes. As I've already said, we did take part in the sense of

18 monitoring. We monitored the international experts performing exhumations

19 at different gravesites linked to Croatia, and the methods that they

20 applied were the methods that we applied too when we do our work in

21 Croatia. So we did have cooperation, and I can say that our cooperation

22 with the international organisations and experts was very good, and the

23 methods that they applied were methods that we use as well in our own

24 country.

25 Q. In paragraph 10 of your report, you stress the use of forensic

Page 17916

1 pathologists, and I would like to know why did you emphasise this fact.

2 A. The question was the use of pathologists in the process of

3 exhumation and identification, and I stressed that in my country, this

4 work wasn't done by strict pathologists but that they were forensic

5 pathologists, forensic medical men who deal with violent deaths, sudden

6 death, and death in natural disasters such as aeroplane crashes and so on

7 and so forth where there are a large number of casualties. So that is why

8 I stress that this work linked to war casualties came under the area of

9 what a forensic scientist did.

10 Q. In paragraph 11 you mentioned that the identification is

11 significantly more difficult in war situations, and my question is: These

12 difficulties, do they have an effect on the time you need for

13 identification?

14 A. Yes. As I stated, these are specific cases linked to wartime

15 where there are alleviating circumstances which make the cases so complex

16 and complicated. And of course, situations of this kind require

17 additional time and effort to be invested in order to identify a corpse

18 and everything else that the Court would be interested in.

19 Q. In paragraph 17 of your report, you refer to the involvement of

20 anthropologists from 1995 onwards. Why was that necessary?

21 A. In our work where we have to identify the persons that were killed

22 during a war, as time goes by the role of the anthropologist becomes more

23 important because, if we're dealing with individuals who, immediately

24 after death were brought to the mortuary, then those bodies are fairly

25 intact and then an anthropologist would not have much to do there because

Page 17917

1 the autopsy can be carried out by a forensic pathologist - the cause of

2 death, the identification of the body, et cetera - but with the passage of

3 time, as more time elapses - and this is a case of five years or more -

4 the corpse disintegrates more and more which means there is less and less

5 soft tissue and it is more or less the skeleton that remains. And as an

6 anthropologist's job is to study bones, old bones, bones that can be

7 several years old or hundreds and thousands of years old, the

8 anthropologist is the proper person to read what the bones tell us, to

9 give us relevant information on the basis of the bones studied, the ones

10 that are important to us to ascertain the cause of death and the

11 circumstances under which a person died. So it will be the anthropologist

12 who will study the bones. When -- in cases where we have parts of

13 skeletons, parts of bones, parts of burnt bones, he will be able to

14 reconstruct the skeleton and answer questions that we need to fill out the

15 protocols and to answer the questions that courts would be interested in.

16 Q. With your report, you provided tables related to certain

17 localities, and before you came to testify, did the Prosecution request

18 you to examine your documentation as they relate to the schedules in the

19 indictment and did you then organise new tables?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And were you asked by the Prosecution to review your documentation

22 in Zagreb related to specific victims and did you accordingly provide --

23 organise this information?

24 A. I did, yes.

25 Q. On the basis of the review of your documentation, did you make

Page 17918

1 special findings related to these victims and did you add these findings

2 in the schedules?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The underlying documentation is -- as such, is it available in

5 Zagreb and could it be reviewed if the court or the parties would like to

6 do so?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. After your arrival in The Hague this week, did you in addition

9 review exhumation reports the Prosecution had in-house and already

10 tendered through Mr. Grujic?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And did you assist in putting together packages for crime scenes,

13 including your findings and underlying materials?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution together with

16 the witness has organised four binders. The small binder, the first

17 binder is actually the summary results, and the other three binders are

18 the exhumation reports and other reports related to the victims, and we

19 would like to tender this into evidence. It is -- mostly it's not new

20 material. It's material disclosed a long time ago, but we have organised

21 it now that it's easier to find specific victims. And we have also

22 produced an index of the binders which is on top of the first binder.

23 JUDGE MAY: It would be convenient to put it into one exhibit. We

24 will have the next number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: It's Prosecution Exhibit number 410.

Page 17919

1 JUDGE MAY: And we have the summary, I take it, and --

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. This is actually the summary findings

3 of Dr. Strinovic going from one crime base to the next, with tables and

4 photographs. And in the other three binders are actually the supporting

5 documentation, mostly exhumation reports or court reports and the like.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, those should be -- if they haven't been,

7 they should be handed in, and we'll -- yes. They have an exhibit number.

8 But we don't have the big binders at the moment. I don't know whether you

9 want to hand such in. We've simply got the summaries. It may be we can

10 work from them.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I would actually not address any of the

12 underlying materials. It is with the registrar.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Were these four binders presented to

17 me earlier on, the ones I've just been given?

18 JUDGE MAY: So we're told.

19 If you could confirm that, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Actually, the new binder is -- number 1

21 is actually a new binder in which we have organised the schedules of the

22 witness, and we would go now through the schedules with the witness, and

23 the witness had presented to us when he came to The Hague photos related

24 to certain crime scenes, and we would go through those photos with the

25 Witness. These are actually -- these are materials that were not

Page 17920

1 disclosed in -- last summer, but they were partly part of the report of

2 the witness with his additional changes.

3 JUDGE MAY: So in order that Mr. Milosevic can prepare for

4 cross-examination, if he looks at the report, he will find the essential

5 material in there --


7 JUDGE MAY: -- which he has had for some time. If he looks at the

8 summary, he will see what you intend to go through tomorrow; is that

9 right, to find that?


11 JUDGE MAY: But the material has been disclosed before, is that

12 right? In different form.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In different form and except for -- the

14 witness had provided with his report tables related to locations, and he

15 has now subdivided some of these tables into crime scenes.

16 For instance, if you have in a village like Skabrnja three

17 different crime scenes, he has now three different tables. So it's easier

18 to split it now into the paragraphs of the indictment.

19 And what is completely new and which was not disclosed earlier are

20 some photos that the witness just brought with him when he came to The

21 Hague. But we would address those photos one by one, and it's actually a

22 help to explain the methodology which is actually described in the report.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll go on to that tomorrow.

24 Yes, Mr. Tapuskovic.

25 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that it is

Page 17921












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17922

1 well nigh impossible if what my colleague the Prosecutor says, that there

2 is a number of photographs here which are being exhibited for the first

3 time here today, then we -- the question really does arise as to whether

4 anybody can deal with things that have been put forward today.

5 I looked through it carefully, and I seem to see that these are

6 things that are quite new. And now the Prosecutor has confirmed that.

7 She says that they are quite new. Perhaps there's nothing to be

8 challenged there, but one would have to study it first.

9 JUDGE MAY: You can have a chance overnight to have a look.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In addition, I just want to mention, the

11 Ovcara photos -- the biggest issue is Ovcara and the exhumation in Ovcara.

12 The Ovcara photos were disclosed or were part of the Ovcara documentation

13 that was disclosed last summer. Only a few additional photos the witness

14 has brought with him from documentation he has in Zagreb, and he elected

15 these photos to explain the different -- how he made his findings as to

16 cause of death. He will point out certain specifics that explain his

17 findings.

18 JUDGE MAY: We will see how we get on tomorrow. If it's necessary

19 to exclude anything, we will. But if it's merely explicatory material,

20 then there may be less dispute about it.


22 JUDGE MAY: Very well, we'll adjourn now. Dr. Strinovic, would be

23 back, please, at 9.00 tomorrow morning when we will continue with your

24 evidence. And will you remember this; not to speak to anybody about your

25 evidence until it's over, and that does include the members of the

Page 17923

1 Prosecution team.

2 Nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of March,

5 2003, at 9.00 a.m.