Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13727

1 Tuesday, 3 December 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS C-061 [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like the AV booth to play

11 the third excerpt from the tape that we haven't seen until the end

12 yesterday.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13728

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 13728 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13729

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE MAY: We're in open session, Mr. Milosevic.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. All right. I will not be mentioning the witness's name. However,

16 what we see on this tape makes it indisputable that several of them had

17 met in a private apartment, all of them from the same area, and they

18 agreed among themselves whom they would need, in terms of experts, to

19 organise Territorial Defence. I therefore assume, Mr. C-061, that it is

20 not in dispute.

21 A. Right.

22 Q. And you explained some time ago that since one of them was an

23 active-duty military man, you had agreed to ask for approval for him to

24 leave the active force of the army and help you out with the Territorial

25 Defence out there. Do you distinguish between finding volunteers who

Page 13730

1 would go out to help you and asking approval for them to leave the army in

2 order to help you out, on one hand, and appointing your own commanders,

3 either by me or by military authorities in Belgrade, on the other hand?

4 A. In this specific case, things went like this: They found a man

5 who was ready to go. He was an active-duty officer. The defence

6 administration of Belgrade, that's what he called his institution where he

7 was employed, and he said he needed your approval to go. As for the rest

8 of the developments, I described them as best I could.

9 Q. How could I possibly approve for someone to leave the defence

10 administration of Belgrade? You said even on tape that I would be

11 supposed to ask the competent military authorities for approval for this

12 man to be put at your disposal.

13 A. Approval for him to go, yes. Use your clout to make it possible

14 for him to go, from the position that you held.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. You said yourself that I was supposed to ask for this man to be

18 released from his duties.

19 A. Yes. We wanted him to be released from the army to help us

20 organise the Territorial Defence of SAO Krajina.

21 Q. The idea seems one that pleases you, the idea of me approving

22 every single decision of yours. Can you tell me how you made the

23 selection and appointments of individuals in the Territorial Defence and

24 later the Serbian army of Krajina?

25 A. General Simovic said that it was you who decided that it should be

Page 13731

1 General Djujic.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear the accused.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. You mentioned he was a retired officer.

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Rather than an active-duty officer. So I suppose that no one from

7 the military authorities, and even less civilian authorities, had to

8 approve for a retired person to go to his homeland and help out in the

9 organisation of Territorial Defence.

10 A. Colonel Maksic was supposed to come to this staff of Territorial

11 Defence, with ten men, and help organise it. However, only several men

12 came, with Colonel Kasim, and said they would make a phone call to

13 Belgrade, and said that you had decided it should be General Djujic.

14 Maksic also came with him, but he was not a commander.

15 Q. These associates or colleagues of yours, whatever you called them,

16 say that it was you who decided on your own that it should be a retired

17 general, Ilija Djujic, who would do this job. They say that what you're

18 saying is not correct.

19 A. What is correct is what Simovic said, and then followed Djujic's

20 appointment. And they said, the three officers who came, said they had

21 the decision of the federal secretary for National Defence.

22 Q. For them to be relieved from their duties in the JNA in order to

23 help with the technical organisation of the TO in Krajina?

24 A. They had approval to make up the staff of the TO of Krajina.

25 Q. You say that at that meeting you heard from one of them, the one

Page 13732

1 who was the leader among them, and I can't remember his name at the moment

2 - you know it - you say you heard him say that he can gather ten officers

3 and take them there in order to help you.

4 A. That's what Colonel Maksic said.

5 Q. You met with him in his own private apartment, and as fellow

6 countrymen, people from the same home town, you came to an agreement

7 without consulting anyone.

8 A. Colonel Maksic said that he came from Serbia proper.

9 Q. What did he say?

10 A. He said he was from Serbia.

11 Q. So what?

12 A. Our homeland is Krajina.

13 JUDGE MAY: Would both you of bear in mind the interpreters.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. So in this private arrangement of yours, if somebody volunteered

16 to help you, then you construe it as his having to bear some sort of

17 responsibility or guilt?

18 A. He was supposed to ask for a transfer.

19 Q. Isn't it logical for an active-duty officer to have to ask for

20 approval from his superiors if he wanted to go there as a volunteer? Did

21 he go there of his own will or did anyone force him?

22 A. Yes, that is logical, and that is why we asked approval from you.

23 Q. You didn't answer. Did he volunteer or did somebody order him to

24 go?

25 A. They said they had the decision from the federal secretary for

Page 13733

1 defence, Veljko Kadijevic.

2 Q. You're not answering again. Was he a volunteer? Is that how he

3 represented himself to you?

4 A. He offered himself as a volunteer, but they arrived with the

5 appropriate decision from the federal secretary for defence, Veljko

6 Kadijevic.

7 Q. So yes, they got approval to be released from active-duty service

8 and help you out with the TO. Do you know that half-truths are worse than

9 lies, Mr. Croatia-061?

10 JUDGE MAY: Not a question. Yes.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I suppose it is not in dispute who commanded the Territorial

13 Defence of Krajina.

14 A. The TO of Krajina was commanded by the superior commands in the

15 JNA in combat actions.

16 Q. Isn't it true that the TO of Krajina was under the command of the

17 then president of Krajina?

18 A. That Krajina did not have a president. It had a Prime Minister,

19 who was supposed to be a civilian commander.

20 Q. That's what I'm talking about. Isn't that right?

21 A. That's right. That's how it should have been. But that's not the

22 way it was.

23 Q. That's what you're saying now.

24 A. That's what it was at the time.

25 Q. I believe we had cleared up that yesterday, especially in the

Page 13734

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13735

1 light of the assertions I made yesterday regarding your own role.

2 JUDGE MAY: No point going back over evidence given earlier.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. I won't, in that case,

4 address issues which will force us to go back into private session.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please answer with precision: Apart from the MUP of Krajina that

7 were appointed by the bodies of Krajina and which consisted of members

8 from Krajina, the state security of Krajina, Krajina had its own Red

9 Berets as well that were known as the Red Berets of Krajina; is that true?

10 A. I hadn't heard of the Red Berets of Krajina. As for the MUP and

11 the DB in Krajina, I have spoken about that already. At the beginning of

12 August, the government took a decision to abolish the service of state

13 security within the territory of SAO Krajina. And as for MUP appointments

14 and operations, I've spoken about that already as well.

15 Q. Very well. To abolish the state security service sounds -- gives

16 one one impression when you put it that way and gives a completely

17 different impression if you tell the truth, and that is that you wanted to

18 make a distinction, to set up an organisation like those which exist in

19 many Western countries, to rename the state security into a security

20 agency. Wasn't that so?

21 A. The plan was to form a new agency, and it should have been under

22 the control of the government rather than the Ministry of the Interior and

23 the DB of Serbia.

24 Q. Very well. Leave the DB of Serbia. You keep making up its

25 responsibilities over there. Is it true that you did not abolish the

Page 13736

1 service but you wanted to rename it into an agency for the security of

2 Krajina, and you took a decision to that effect?

3 A. No. The service of state security in the territory of Krajina was

4 abolished, and subsequently an agency was to have been formed under the

5 control of the government, but this was not done because it was not

6 possible under the existing circumstances, and which I've already

7 testified about.

8 Q. You were rather contradictory in discussing these matters, because

9 you say that I controlled everything, that I had command over there. Then

10 why would a parallel structure be necessary when I was in control?

11 Please, is it true that you've made up completely this parallel structure

12 out of fear? Is that right or not, Mr. C-061?

13 A. First of all, the government needed to have its own intelligence

14 agency under its control rather than under the control of the DB of

15 Serbia. Secondly, the parallel structure was as I have described it. At

16 the top of that structure was the DB of Serbia, and above the DB of

17 Serbia, you.

18 Q. But you were the person who took the decisions. You shaped life

19 in Krajina. You appointed the ministers, you appointed the heads of state

20 security, the Minister of Police, the Minister of Defence; the whole

21 organisation of life. What has parallel structure got to do with it?

22 A. I have been addressing these issues specifically. If I need to go

23 into them again, I can.

24 Q. Is it true that all those structures that I have listed - state

25 security, MUP, and the TO, the army of Krajina - they had a completely

Page 13737

1 separate command structure in relation to Serbia and the Federal Republic

2 of Yugoslavia?

3 A. The MUP in the Krajina was under the control of the DB of Serbia.

4 That is under your control. The army, the Serbian army in the Republic of

5 Srpska Krajina, was under your control. One of the ways I have already

6 described, one of the ways in which this was done. The Territorial

7 Defence of Krajina was controlled by the JNA, that is, by you. The DB in

8 Krajina was formed first within the SUP, the Ministry of the Interior, and

9 then it was abolished because you controlled it. However, it continued to

10 operate. The government did not set up its own separate service.

11 Q. Very well. Doesn't the following completely annul what you are

12 just saying, and doesn't it reveal your complete separation from what

13 you're saying? [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13738

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 13738-13750 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13751

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13752

1 Q. You know that the citizens from the diaspora collected money

2 during all those war years and they assisted the Serbs in Krajina. I'm

3 sure you're aware of that. I have here just one example of that. It

4 dates to the end of 1994, when a sum of money had been collected, and you

5 can take a look at this list. These are people who live in America for

6 the most part, or rather, American citizens. Some people gave 20 dollars,

7 others gave 2.000 dollars, one person gave 500 dollars, another might have

8 given a thousand dollars. But anyway, a sum was collected and the total

9 was 169.417 dollars in that one assistance campaign and one sum that was

10 raised for you. 169.417 US dollars was the sum that was collected and

11 sent to you. Do you remember that? That was in 1994. You can take a

12 look at this list of donors, and you'll be able to see. Some people gave

13 50, others gave 4.000, some gave 20, some gave 200. But there were many

14 of them. They're not in order, alphabetical order or numerical order.

15 There are four and a half pages of names. Do you remember that?

16 A. I remember that the Serbs from the diaspora did send assistance in

17 money to Krajina, and this began as early on as 1990. First of all, this

18 collection was made for Serb radio television in Knin, then there were

19 other collection drives, and there was even some communication equipment

20 that was sent into the region, but the DB of Serbia seized it at the

21 airport in Belgrade --

22 Q. I'm not asking you -- please, I'm not asking you about any

23 communication devices that were dispatched. Now, this is your specialty;

24 you're not answering the questions that I'm asking you, and we're seeing

25 through that, Mr. C-061. What I'm asking you is this, and I want a yes or

Page 13753

1 no answer: The representatives of these citizens who collected these

2 169.000 dollars, 169,417 US dollars was the sum that had been collected,

3 and these citizens claimed that they personally handed over that sum of

4 money to you, that the money was never paid into either the budget of the

5 municipality of the SAO of Krajina or any other institution, for that

6 matter.

7 A. I never received the 169.000 dollars personally. It was never

8 handed over to me.

9 Q. And do you know that it was precisely because they had handed the

10 money over to you personally that proceedings were brought against you;

11 however, these court proceedings were closed to the public because of the

12 post and position you held? Do you know about these legal proceedings

13 that were taken because of the appropriation of these 169.417 US dollars?

14 A. No, I do not.

15 Q. Does the name Vladimir Velebit, an inspector, mean anything to

16 you, who headed those legal proceedings and the investigation undertaken

17 because of the fact that you had appropriated this money?

18 A. I do not.

19 Q. And do you know that the proceedings led by this inspector named

20 Vladimir Velebit, who conducted the embezzlement procedures was killed in

21 Krajina in a way that was never found out how?

22 A. No, I do not.

23 Q. Fine. Great. As we're on the subject of finances, and you're

24 talking off the bat about finances, quite incorrectly, do you happen to

25 know the following: What were the contributions, or rather, donations,

Page 13754

1 that were made by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to the budget of the

2 Republic of the Serbian Krajina? Quite officially, official figures,

3 public figures, and quite legally and lawfully.

4 A. I can't remember the exact figure, but there are facts and figures

5 about that question.

6 Q. Well, you have made statements here and observations as to some

7 shady dealings. Do you know, for example, that with the budget of Krajina

8 for 1992, the year 1992, all the social welfare and protection, health

9 protection, education grants, et cetera, and allowances, amounted to

10 1.666.000 Krajina dinars, or 5 per cent of the overall total budget of the

11 Republic of the RSK, for instance? And at the same time --

12 JUDGE MAY: One thing at a time. Let the witness deal with this

13 question.

14 Can you assist as to that or not?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The largest portion of the budget

16 for Krajina was allocated for military purposes.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You're once again answering a question that I never asked you.

19 I'm not asking you that.

20 A. Well, you enumerated all those facts.

21 Q. You're answering a question I didn't ask you about. I know you

22 have received your instructions and you are following the lesson you have

23 learnt --

24 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Milosevic, that's a totally improper comment,

25 and you know it. It cuts no ice at all for you to make these sort of

Page 13755

1 comments. Now, the question that was asked was whether --

2 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

3 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. The question that was asked was the 5

4 per cent for those amounts. Can you help? If you can't help, just say

5 so. You've told us that most went on military expenditure.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The figures I know date to 1995, and

7 the Krajina had about 30.000 pensioners, that it had several thousand

8 health workers. You mentioned something about the health care system.

9 That means that these were the recipients of those funds for those

10 purposes, allocated to those purposes. Now, what the exact sum was, I

11 can't say, I can't express it in figures.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Croatia C-061, had have you read the epic Gorski Vijenac, The

14 Mountain Wreath?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Well, do you recall the verse by Njegos, the author, which says

17 that fear tarnishes one's face, the face of a man?

18 A. Well, I know many portions and verses from The Mountain Wreath by

19 heart.

20 THE INTERPRETER: That a man's honour is tarnished, interpreter's

21 correction.

22 JUDGE MAY: We've had enough of the literary excursion. Let us

23 move on.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. There were not 30.000 pensioners in Krajina, Mr. C-061. You

Page 13756

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13757

1 ignore that because you did not deal in public affairs. You rather

2 paraded in uniforms and took credit that didn't belong to you. There were

3 50.000 pensioners in Krajina. And in your budget, you had 5 per cent of

4 funds for all those needs. And Yugoslavia, for instance, in 1993, gave

5 14.8 per cent - that is, almost 15 per cent - of your budget for those

6 purposes: Health care, education, veterans, and the disabled. We have

7 this data.

8 A. Which year did you say?

9 Q. 1993. Veterans, health care, and other allowances,

10 154.249.841.991 dinars, which is 14.8 per cent of the total budget of

11 Krajina for 1993. You even --

12 A. I was not in the government then. If you ask me about 1994,

13 1995 --

14 Q. You have no clue. These --

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, it is not fair to put a string of

16 figures to a witness and then claim he has no clue, and you know it. Now,

17 if you want to cross-examine, you must do so fairly and properly, or it

18 will be stopped. Now, have you got some figures to put in front of him?

19 Try and do it fairly so he has the chance to answer, instead of just

20 reeling them off. Have you got some figures that you can put in front of

21 him to substantiate what you're saying?

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Mr. May. I will not

23 squander my time quoting all the figures, but in view of his job, or jobs,

24 he should be aware of these figures, at least approximately.

25 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... now, let's move

Page 13758

1 on. You can either cross-examine him properly by putting the documents in

2 front of him and asking him about them - it's not a memory test - or we'll

3 go on to something else.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Let me ask you, then, since he doesn't have a memory, he says he

6 has a visual one, and this is easy to remember visually if you look at

7 figures, but he doesn't know that, of course. Do you know how much aid,

8 how many thousands of barges with oil, sugar, staple foods, medicines, and

9 other things, trailers, came to Krajina from Serbia over all these years?

10 A. Krajina could not have survived without Serbia's help. That's

11 obvious.

12 Q. How many thousands of trailers arrived to Krajina from Serbia over

13 those years?

14 A. I don't know how many thousands. All I know is that we depended

15 on Serbia.

16 Q. Why are you smirking here, then, and answering questions of the

17 lady from the opposite side related to the intercept, the intercepted

18 conversation between Karadzic and Kertes about flour, oil, blankets? Why

19 do you laugh and why do you say that those were code-names for weapons and

20 ammunition?

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 A. Well, I read it as a very mildly coded conversation, very mildly.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. All right, then. What terms were then used for blankets, flour,

25 oil, sugar, medicines, and all the other things that we sent as aid to

Page 13759

1 you? If "flour" was used as a term for ammunition, what term was used to

2 denote flour proper? Let me learn something from you if I can.

3 A. Well, flour was called flour. What else was mentioned in that

4 intercept? Batteries, HDZ will be receiving batteries. It is quite clear

5 that it is a mildly coded conversation for weapons.

6 Q. Well, "flour" means sometimes flour, sometimes it means weapons.

7 A. Well, I never heard about Kertes sending flour to the HDZ.

8 Q. There is no mention of flour transports to the HDZ in that

9 intercept.

10 A. There are references to lights out, to batteries, to other things.

11 Q. In Yugoslavia, Vojvodina is the bread basket of the country and

12 probably the greatest bread basket in the Balkans, and they even talk

13 about the sending of supplies which are soon going to expire because they

14 would be getting new ones, and most of the stuff was sent from the

15 so-called food reserves.

16 A. Well, because Kertes was the head of that -- I'm not aware of

17 Kertes being involved in that.

18 Q. I was never head of the commodity reserves directorate.

19 A. I didn't say that you were.

20 Q. Well, according to you, I was head of everything in Yugoslavia,

21 and if anybody ran over a pedestrian in the street, it's probably my

22 fault.

23 A. I know that you were Kertes's boss.

24 Q. I was Kertes's boss, but I was not your boss. And if I had been

25 your boss, you would not have done what you did. And is it correct that

Page 13760

1 with this assertion of Croatia in 1990 and 1991, Croatia also interrupted

2 all payments and payment transactions towards the area populated by Serbs

3 and that there it was practically impossible to make a payment to the

4 screw factory which you mentioned and for which you came to me to ask for

5 assistance? They were unable to operate; is that correct?

6 A. You have to make one distinction here. One thing here is that the

7 Croatian government, in spring 1991, blocked and isolated from the payment

8 system these areas, and in 1991, the giro accounts of certain factories

9 were blocked, were frozen. For instance, the Tvik factory had its account

10 frozen because of a 40-million debt. Certain accounts were frozen by the

11 Croatian government because of debts, and also in the case of some

12 enterprises, such as Splitvica, because they were politically in bad

13 order. And payment transactions completely ceased in May 1991, in

14 Krajina, and Krajina was no longer able to be involved in the payment

15 system through the Croatian SDK.

16 Q. Is it clear to you that the Republic of Serbian Krajina, facing

17 this problem, embarked upon creating its own payment system in order to be

18 able to function as an economic entity? Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. First we started with the payments system, whereas the

20 banking system of Krajina remained within the economic territory of your

21 Yugoslavia, in order to survive economically. That's right.

22 Q. Well, you are too susceptible to the inertia of answering in the

23 negative to every question of mine, even those questions which seem

24 favourable to you. Do you know that Yugoslavia had its own system of

25 payments transactions?

Page 13761

1 A. As of 1992, of course. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia did

2 have its own payment system.

3 Q. Payments transactions were effected through the social accountancy

4 service, the SDK, although in other countries this is done through banks,

5 and it was even our intention to change the system and replace the SDK by

6 banks.

7 A. I heard from experts that according to plans for the reform of the

8 SDK, the SDK was supposed to be brought under the umbrella of the National

9 Bank of Yugoslavia. Several years were necessary for this plan to be

10 effected. The plan was to abolish the service for payment transactions

11 within the National Bank of Yugoslavia and hand it over to specialised

12 services. I don't know what was the situation at the time we are talking

13 about and at what stage the implementation of the plan was.

14 Q. You should refrain from incorrect assumptions. Is it true that

15 for the purposes of enabling payments to be made to the Krajina, special

16 accounts were opened in the SDK, in the Republic of Krajina?

17 A. After the 16th of May, 1991, the social accountancy service of the

18 SAO Krajina was established, and all participants in the payment system

19 opened their accounts with that service. In fact, they had accounts

20 before, but they were not integrated. That service was integrated with

21 the SDK of Serbia through Belgrade.

22 Q. Here we come back to that claim of yours, probably because you

23 don't understand this completely. But all accounts were run through the

24 SDK of Krajina, whereas the processing of payment orders was done in

25 Yugoslavia by the service with which a contract on the extension of

Page 13762

1 services was signed for that purpose, because you were not able to tackle

2 the technical aspect of the job. And this was done by branch offices in

3 Sombor, Zemun, and Belgrade.

4 A. I know about that. This was done by branch office 6 in Belgrade,

5 and I know that before that, enterprises from Krajina opened duplicate

6 accounts in the branch office in Belgrade. How that technically operated,

7 who processed payment orders, who signed them, is a matter of technique

8 and method. I don't know that.

9 Q. Do you know, for instance, that the Republic of Serbian Krajina

10 set up its own payments operation service and opened branch offices in

11 Knin, Glina, Petrinja, Vukovar, Beli Manastir? Do you know about that?

12 A. Of course I know. We were actively working on setting up that

13 system.

14 Q. Do you know that your SDK had a contract with SDK Novi Belgrade

15 and Sombor for the processing of those payments orders?

16 A. That was a way of integrating the system, because the system

17 itself would mean nothing if it had not been integrated with the system of

18 Yugoslavia. It would have been just an isolated SDK system of Krajina,

19 and it would have been stifled.

20 Q. Do you know that within Krajina such a system can operate, and

21 outside the SAO Krajina, it can operate through any payments institution

22 or bank, be it in Belgrade, New York, Geneva, or Milan? It doesn't

23 matter. Payments transactions are effected with entities with whom you

24 have deals.

25 A. The financial authorities in Yugoslavia resolved this in the way

Page 13763

1 which was favourable to Krajina, bypassing Croatia. It was done through

2 the FRY SDK system. That's the reason why the SDK of Krajina was

3 integrated with the payment system of Yugoslavia.

4 Q. I just explained in which way it was integrated, but let's not

5 waste time.

6 Is it true that on the 14th of July, 1992, the National Bank of

7 Krajina was set up, that the so-called Krajina dinar was introduced, that

8 the banking system was built up and completely equipped to function, both

9 the payment system and the banking system of Krajina?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And the payment system, with the banking system of Krajina,

12 cooperated with its counterparts in Yugoslavia, exclusively on the basis

13 of the relevant regulations.

14 A. It functioned as a component part of the unified system of

15 Yugoslavia.

16 Q. I just explained to you that it is not the way you are describing

17 it. But since you seem to have the need to continue claiming the

18 opposite --

19 A. We needed --

20 JUDGE MAY: He's entitled -- [Previous translation continues]...

21 You may not like it, but he's entitled to give it. Your comment is of no

22 assistance. Now, anything else you want to ask him?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are right, Mr. May; the witness

24 has the right not to know something. But he doesn't have the right to

25 lie.

Page 13764

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13765

1 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for us to determine, between what you

2 assert and the evidence he gives.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Do you know that until the budget of SAO Krajina was decided in

5 1992, the needs of municipalities were being met, among other things, from

6 the production and processing of oil?

7 A. The production of oil was located in the Mirkovci municipality.

8 Other municipalities did not have this amenity for filling their budgets.

9 Q. Do you know that as far as this production is concerned, it did

10 not belong to the Mirkovci municipality; it belonged to the whole of

11 Krajina?

12 A. That's true. You were talking about municipalities, though.

13 Q. I had two things in mind: One were municipal budgets, and another

14 thing was the financing of the Krajina budget from its own revenues,

15 including revenues from oil production. Are you aware of that?

16 A. The budget was filled from turnover tax on sales of oil and oil

17 derivatives.

18 Q. Since you presented a number of false pieces of information here,

19 including that Stanisic, Kertes, and others appropriated funds from oil

20 revenues, I have a disclaimer from Mikelic, who claims exactly the

21 opposite. He says as follows:

22 "It never happened, in all the time that I was Prime Minister of

23 the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that I, with Jovica Stanisic and Mihalj

24 Kertes, ever had a conversation regarding the sale of oil and oil

25 derivatives in Mirkovci, let alone having a joint venture with them for

Page 13766

1 sale of oil to the refinery in Pancevo. If the witness had known about

2 such things, such serious offences, how is it possible that he did not

3 present them at the Assembly of Serbian Krajina --"

4 JUDGE MAY: We don't want the comments of your various

5 correspondents. What you can put to the witness is that he is not right

6 when he asserts there was this conversation about oil derivatives.

7 Now, you've heard that, Witness C-061. It's suggested that that

8 conversation never took place, there was no joint venture. What is your

9 answer to that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I had several reports

11 regarding the distribution of oil derivatives, and when I spoke about

12 that, I was referring to the situation in 1994 and 1995. I heard, before

13 that, that control over oil sources was in the hands of Mihalj Kertes,

14 that he had a unit of his over there. I first heard that in Ilok

15 Slavonia, he had a unit called Red Berets --

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Who had a unit? Excuse me. I didn't hear it.

18 JUDGE MAY: Let him finish.

19 A. And that his men also controlled Djeletovci. That is a region

20 where oil was being pumped near Mirkovci. Secondly, after the

21 introduction of sanctions, the imposition of sanctions, after they were

22 published and, to be more precise, the blockade, actually, towards

23 Republika Srpska, and similarly also towards the Republic of Srpska

24 Krajina, the trade in oil derivatives, or rather, the transit of oil

25 derivatives, was under the control of international observers. To avoid

Page 13767

1 the control of international observers, the following was done, to bypass

2 their control. I know very well that several times at government sessions

3 chaired by Mikelic there was a discussion on the number of cisterns and

4 so-called "arnjevi," which was an expression used to camouflage the tanks

5 so that they wouldn't be spotted by planes overflying the territory of

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina and to not be noticed by the observers at border

7 crossings. And I had two reports. One report came from people in

8 Slavonia, that oil passed partially through the woods north of Sremska

9 Raca, upstream, along the Sava River, and the other route was these

10 camouflaged oil trucks used country roads to reach the bridge connecting

11 the two Racas on the Sava River, and in that way they bypassed

12 international control.

13 Thirdly, I think this was a conversation sometime in April 1995,

14 in the villa in Boticevo Street, attended by several participants, among

15 them President Milosevic, Sokolovic, Stanisic, Badza, Mikelic, and there

16 was a discussion there about oil and this problem. At that point in time,

17 I didn't quite understand the reasons why this was a problem. I realised

18 it was a problem when Mikelic turned up late.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Could the answer be shorter.

20 JUDGE MAY: Let him finish.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mikelic was late to the meeting, and

22 in fear sort of, he asked, "What happened, what happened?" as if he was

23 afraid. I didn't realise anything special had happened. There was a

24 discussion about football. I was a fan of Partizan and he of Zvezda.

25 JUDGE MAY: If you can finish that.

Page 13768

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That meeting did take place, Your

2 Honour, in April 1995.

3 Also, in May 1995, regarding the same subject, Stanisic and

4 Karadzic mentioned Boro Mikelic in Bijeljina. I think I've already

5 testified about that, and if necessary, I can repeat what I said.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I don't understand anything, anything of what you've just said.

8 Here is what he says: The production -- Is this true, please? That is

9 my question to you. He says that the production of crude oil was in

10 Djeletovci, in Mirkovci municipality, and processing was done in the oil

11 refinery in Pancevo. After processing in Pancevo, the distribution of oil

12 derivatives was carried out through the company Nik Mirkovci and then the

13 derivatives were directed towards public enterprises: Nik Mirkovci, Nik

14 Vukovar, Nik Dvor na Uni, and Nik Knin. So four public companies.

15 Through these branch companies, the oil derivatives --

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let the witness answer you. You've put

17 a series of assertions about where the processing was done and the like of

18 it.

19 Now, Witness, it's put to you, first of all, the processing was

20 done in Pancevo. Do you agree with that?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. It was pumped in

22 Djeletovci, in two ways, using the normal technology. The processing was

23 in Pancevo.

24 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested the distribution was carried out

25 through various -- through a company Nik Mirkovci, and directed towards

Page 13769

1 various public enterprises. Is that right?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the territory of Krajina, yes.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So for the needs of agriculture, industry, the army of the

6 Republic of Srpska Krajina, and for sale at petrol stations in Krajina; is

7 that right? Sale to the public.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is it true that the -- a certain percentage of oil derivatives,

10 every tonne produced, processed, and then returned to Krajina, that these

11 accounts were established at every government session regarding the needs

12 that have just been listed, that a balance was made every month of oil

13 derivatives at government sessions of Krajina?

14 A. For the territory of Krajina, yes. From regular production. I

15 wanted to say that there was also so-called extraordinary production.

16 Q. I am really unable to fathom what you have just said, because it

17 follows from this that Mikelic, who was Prime Minister at the time you are

18 talking about, he says that the balances were made at government sessions

19 monthly, that oil was distributed throughout Krajina for all these needs -

20 you confirmed that - and now you are saying that there was some

21 extraordinary production. What are you talking about?

22 A. I can't explain it technologically, but these people from Mirkovci

23 explained to me that regular technological procedures implies pumping oil,

24 injecting water, to maintain the stability of the soil. But there was

25 another way of faster pumping without injecting water, something like

Page 13770

1 that. I can't be very specific about this. So in this way, there were

2 additional quantities of oil.

3 What I testified about was the problem between determining the

4 quotas for Krajina and Republika Srpska, namely, the method in which

5 certain debts were balanced out between Mikelic and Karadzic was the

6 disappearance of oil tankers passing through the Republic of -- Republika

7 Srpska, and this was a discussion that we had at government meetings.

8 Certain quantities of oil derivatives designated for Srpska Krajina did

9 not arrive in Krajina, and Mikelic explained this, that Karadzic was

10 taking them from him as they passed through the territory of Republika

11 Srpska. So this was one of the incidents and disagreements with Karadzic

12 that I am aware of.

13 Q. What has that got to do with Serbia, whether Mikelic and Karadzic

14 had a dispute over a particular oil tank? And what has Karadzic got to do

15 if an oil tank disappeared in Republika Srpska? Are you saying that

16 Karadzic stole an oil tank?

17 A. This was a dispute between Stanisic and Mikelic, and this was a

18 dispute that was discussed at your offices.

19 Q. You really believe that the state security of Serbia would address

20 a dispute between Mikelic and Karadzic regarding an oil cistern?

21 JUDGE MAY: One moment. This will be the last answer and then

22 we'll adjourn.

23 Would you deal with that, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, what was the -- our last

25 question?

Page 13771

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13772

1 JUDGE MAY: You were asked about your belief. Do you believe the

2 state security of Serbia would address a dispute between Mikelic and

3 Karadzic concerning an oil cistern? Now, you can give an answer to that,

4 if you can.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that that is what happened.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now. 20 minutes, please.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

8 --- Upon commencing at 10.56 a.m.

9 JUDGE MAY: Now, we have, I understand, an excerpt from the last

10 part of the interview which was played. We'll ask the registrar to give

11 it a number.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked Defence Exhibit

13 57B, under seal.

14 JUDGE MAY: There's also, I see on the desk, the collection, the

15 list of the collection, 69.000 dollars, or 169.000, I forget the precise

16 amount. Do you want this exhibited, Mr. Milosevic? Yes.

17 Give it an exhibit number, please.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE MAY: No, there's no reason why it should be under seal. It

20 can be open.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Defence Exhibit 63.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Let's finish the question of oil. The Ministry of Energy and the

25 man in charge or responsible for oil was Milivoj Kricka, the Minister of

Page 13773

1 Energy; is that right?

2 A. In Borislav Mikelic's government, yes.

3 Q. But you're talking about that period, aren't you, when you claim

4 what you allege happened? Do you know that Milivoj Kricka, the Minister

5 of Energy, is also saying that you're not telling the truth?

6 A. I don't know what Kricka, is saying, but I do know that Kricka

7 was drilling the Adriatic oil pipeline, or the Yugoslav pipeline, as it

8 was known, in the area of Banija or Kordun before that pipeline in 1995

9 was to be set in operation in order to exhaust the oil reserves that

10 existed.

11 Q. I see. So you're now accusing the Minister of Energy for drilling

12 the pipeline.

13 A. No. That was Mikelic's decision, and his decision, and many

14 people agreed with that.

15 Q. So you didn't agree, of course.

16 A. I didn't mind. It wasn't part of my responsibility. But if that

17 was useful for Krajina, I agreed.

18 Q. Very well, then. Since you have such a critical attitude towards

19 Mikelic's government, and him personally, are you aware that over an

20 eight-month period of this government headed by Borislav Mikelic, that you

21 describe in this way, industrial production went up by all of 26 per cent,

22 and agricultural production marked an increase of 35 per cent? And the

23 results were such that material reserves went up seven times over, and

24 employed figures increased by 23.000 workers, which, for the conditions in

25 Krajina, was a great deal. And also, it became possible in May to start

Page 13774

1 paying out salaries to employees in public service, and these salaries had

2 been delayed also for the pensioners, members of the army, the police of

3 the Republic of Srpska Krajina, all this thanks to a stabilisation of

4 economic conditions as a result of the efforts invested by this

5 government. Are you aware of this?

6 A. It is true that the government headed by Borislav Mikelic did

7 achieve a lot and produced positive results in terms of stabilisation of

8 economic and overall social life in the Republic of Srpska Krajina,

9 especially so in the second half of 1994 and the beginning of 1995.

10 Q. And is it true that one of the -- that the priorities of this

11 government headed by Mikelic was the implementation of the Zagreb Peace

12 Agreement, signed on the 29th of November, 1994, in the embassy of Russia,

13 in Belgrade -- in Zagreb, sorry, and signed by Admiral Rakic, who was

14 Minister of Defence of the Republic Srpska Krajina, and General Mile

15 Novakovic, upon authority of Milan Martic, president of the Republic of

16 Srpska Krajina?

17 A. Would you please repeat that? I think you mentioned a number of

18 things just then.

19 Q. My question was whether it is true that one of the top priorities

20 of that government headed by Mikelic was the implementation of the Zagreb

21 Peace Agreement, and I mentioned, and I identified the people involved.

22 A. You mentioned two agreements, one from November 1994, which was an

23 agreement with the Croatian government on the normalisation of economic

24 relations in certain areas, which were listed specifically, that is,

25 traffic, oil, electricity, water supply, and railway traffic. And before

Page 13775

1 that, there was another agreement that you mentioned, and that was an

2 agreement on a ceasefire, from March 1994, signed by the persons you

3 named. I don't know exactly, but that agreement was later confirmed by

4 the Assembly.

5 Q. That's right. But I also assume that you will not deny that those

6 two agreements were linked together and that that was part of the

7 normalisation of relations: First a ceasefire, followed by the

8 establishment of economic relations. So I'm asking you: Is it true that

9 a negotiating team was formed to discuss economic issues with Croatia, and

10 before those economic negotiations with Croatia and joint activities, this

11 agreement on a ceasefire was implemented?

12 A. The ceasefire agreement was complied with. There were reports of

13 isolated incidents, but generally it was observed. Secondly, the talks on

14 economic relations with Croatia between representatives of the government

15 of Krajina and representatives of the Croatian government started in

16 August, after you had approved those talks to begin in June, and those

17 talks ended partly with the agreement in November relating to certain

18 economic issues.

19 Q. And do you remember that those negotiations were conducted with

20 the participation - I would call it active participation and direct

21 involvement - of international mediators: David Owen and Thorwald

22 Stoltenberg and their associates, such as Kai Eide and others, and that

23 priorities were established, and those were the opening to traffic of the

24 Belgrade-Zagreb highway, the Yugoslav oil pipeline, the long-distance

25 electricity cables, the water supply system, and then other economic

Page 13776

1 matters and projects, such as the project to set up a joint oil company,

2 and others? Do you remember that?

3 A. In my previous answer, I said what the agreement covered, and it

4 is true that the negotiations started also through the mediation of

5 international mediators that you have mentioned.

6 Q. Tell me now: Is it true that when final agreement was reached on

7 all matters on which economic negotiations were conducted, that you

8 refused to go to Zagreb because it was your estimate that your rating

9 would go down in Krajina and, to tell you the truth, among Serbs outside

10 of Krajina as well? Was that right or not?

11 A. As far as I know, the agreement was signed in Knin, in the

12 headquarters of the peace forces for Sector South.

13 Q. Again you're answering a question that I did not put to you.

14 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session to deal with this.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13777

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 13777-13788 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13789

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. As we're talking about the political status of Serbs in Krajina

19 and in Republika Srpska, and so on and so forth, I think that we can state

20 in open -- we can ask for answers in open session to some of the questions

21 that have been raised and that relate to the declaration adopted at a

22 Sabor Assembly held in Srb on the 25th of July, 1995.

23 Could you give me your views about that declaration.

24 A. What kind of opinion do you want?

25 Q. What?

Page 13790

1 A. In what sense do you want me to answer?

2 Q. Well, you have said a lot of contradictory things. I would like

3 to know whether you agreed with the contents of that declaration.

4 JUDGE MAY: [Previous translation continues]... Mr. Milosevic.

5 Your comments on the evidence are of no assistance to anybody. No doubt

6 you do it for your own purposes, but you don't assist the Court and it's

7 not fair to the witness. Now, what is it you want to put, in concrete

8 terms, as opposed to making some generalizations?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is not fair to the witness?

10 JUDGE MAY: It's not fair to make these general and sometimes

11 rather wild allegations that he's been contradicting himself and the like.

12 Now, point out a contradiction. If you want to ask him about it, of

13 course you're entitled to. But put things in concrete terms, not

14 generalizations and not comments on the evidence, such as, "You've said a

15 lot of contradictory things." Now, ask something concrete.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Forget, then, all the

17 contradictory things he said.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. My specific question is as follows: Now, when you take this

20 declaration from Srb, do you agree with the text or not?

21 A. At that time, I agreed with that text.

22 Q. All right, then. What about today? You agreed at that time. Do

23 you agree with it today?

24 A. Today, political circumstances are different. We have behind us

25 an experience full of political mistakes and failures. But in itself, the

Page 13791

1 text of the declaration, in those times and under those circumstances,

2 could have produced a good political effect had it not been for subsequent

3 political abuses and your own insistence on a political process which you

4 described as legal, whereas it ended up causing internecine conflicts and

5 divisions.

6 Q. We've already heard that. You explained, in response to one of my

7 questions yesterday, that it was not the violent secession of certain

8 republics that caused the war in Yugoslavia, and it was not the effect of

9 the various political pressures from outside; it was, rather, the right to

10 self-determination that caused the war.

11 A. Well, that was your explanation. The war was caused by you, by

12 abusing and compromising that right to self-determination.

13 Q. All right, then. Since you say that from today's point of view

14 you would not today support this declaration again -- did I understand you

15 correctly?

16 A. I referred to certain political processes which followed that

17 declaration.

18 Q. I'll read out to you something that you wrote at that time

19 proceeding from universal principles, or rather, one universal principle,

20 and that is the right of peoples to self-determination after secession,

21 and proceeding from the existing norms in the constitution of the FRY and

22 the Republic of Croatia, and especially in the Republic of Croatia,

23 stating that the Republic of Croatia is also a state of the Serbian people

24 of Croatia, and for purposes of protecting its sovereignty and freedom,

25 the Serbian people populating today's unified territories hereby adopts

Page 13792

1 and promulgates.

2 What is there about it that is not honourable or principled? What

3 do you see in it that is not politically correct and dishonest?

4 A. In that part of the text that you read?

5 Q. I can read out to you the entire declaration.

6 A. The right to self-determination should have been exercised within

7 the boundaries of the republics where these peoples lived. That would

8 have been a solution that would not have caused conflicts.

9 Q. So that is your current interpretation?

10 A. That's my current opinion.

11 Q. I don't know where it is in my notes, but I'll find it later. It

12 is precisely peaceful solutions that the Presidency of the SFRY discussed

13 at that time. Before I quote again to you a part of this declaration, do

14 you know that in all constitutions of Croatia, until those changes that

15 brought HDZ into power, that in all constitutions of Croatia, the Serbian

16 people in Croatia were treated as an equal constituent nation? Do you

17 know that?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Do you know that Croats, Serbs, and Slovenes who lived in the

20 Austro-Hungarian empire after the First World War united into one state

21 with Serbia who was on the side of the victors in that war, the First

22 World War, whereas Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, and other South Slavs in that

23 area were on the side of the Austro-Hungarian empire?

24 A. I spoke before this Court about the way the Kingdom of Serbs,

25 Croats, and Slovenes was established.

Page 13793

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13794

1 Q. It was those Serbs who united together with Croats and Slovenes in

2 this area, who united with Serbia, who were expelled from that state as if

3 they hadn't existed before that state ever came into being.

4 A. That was an agreement between the Serbian people there and the

5 Croatian government, or rather, lack of agreement between them about the

6 position of the Serbian people there.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the record reflect that I said what period

8 are we dealing with? Perhaps the witness can help us.

9 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

10 MR. MAY: Be quiet, Mr. Milosevic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Milosevic made a historical

12 outline of the establishment of the first state in 1918, of the first

13 state of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, and the unification of those peoples

14 from the previous territory of the Austro-Hungarian empire. That was one

15 topic. Another topic --

16 JUDGE MAY: We're dealing with 1918. No assistance to us,

17 Mr. Milosevic. Now, move on to something up to date, if you want us to

18 continue with this.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I just mentioned in passing

20 1918 in a complex sentence addressed to the witness.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let us move on, then. Let us move on.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Therefore, it is not in dispute that in all constitutions until

24 1990, until the HDZ appeared, the Serbian people were an equal,

25 constituent people within Croatia and that Croatia was defined as the

Page 13795

1 state of the Croatian people, the Serbian people, and other peoples living

2 there. Was that true, Mr. C-061?

3 A. Yes, that's true. I spoke about that several times already.

4 Q. So it's not an everyday political conflict between HDZ and Serbian

5 representatives in 1990. It was about the abolishing of the status of the

6 Serbian people in Krajina, a status which they had even before Croatia

7 existed?

8 A. I said already, and let me repeat: Yes, it was a topic and the

9 subject of the political conflict in 1990 between the political

10 representatives of the Serbian people and the new Croatian authorities,

11 that is, the HDZ. You interfered in that political conflict in the way

12 I've already described.

13 Q. What you described is not correct, but let me get back to this

14 declaration of which you're now washing your hands. Let me read another

15 passage from it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, to assist you, it's the

17 declaration of Srb, and it's tab 10 of Exhibit 351.

18 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. So this one further up I read out invokes the constitution of

21 Croatia, which defines Croatia as a state belonging also to the Serbian

22 people. And then it goes on to say in the declaration itself:

23 "Within the borders of the state of Croatia, which is a state also

24 of the Serbian people living in it, the Serbian people, based on its

25 geographical, historical, cultural, and other characteristics, is a

Page 13796

1 sovereign people, with all the rights making up the sovereignty of one

2 people."

3 What do you have against a stand like that? Is that an honourable

4 position?

5 A. At that time, it was an honourable position that we fought for.

6 It is still an honourable position from the point of view of the

7 constitution and the status of the Serbian people in Croatia.

8 Q. A stance can be either principled or unprincipled. It cannot be

9 principled at one time and not be principled today. I'll quote another

10 passage:

11 "One cannot, without the participation of the Serbian people in

12 Croatia, choose the form of Yugoslav unity, especially in terms of

13 secession. Peoples can secede, not states."

14 Is that an appropriate position? Was it true?

15 A. That's in the declaration. It was true at the time. I said at

16 the time there were two options: One in favour of the Yugoslav Federation,

17 and staying within it, which was supported by you; and another option,

18 supported by the HDZ, headed by Franjo Tudjman, and between these two

19 options, we chose the option favoured by Serbia, and that's the sentence

20 you just read.

21 Q. I don't know whether you accepted that option. If you had, it is

22 to your credit, because the stance of Serbia at the time was that all

23 nations and peoples are equal, that it was peoples who united using their

24 right to self-determination into Yugoslavia. It was no fabrication of the

25 regime. It is a historic fact contained in all the constitutions of

Page 13797

1 Yugoslavia until that day.

2 A. You forgot just one thing: Peoples exercise their equality and

3 rights within the republics where they lived, whereas on the level of the

4 SFRY, they exercised them through their republics. That's what you

5 overlooked.

6 Q. You didn't overlook anything. You simply don't know anything

7 about it. Out of fear, you are now denouncing very principled positions

8 that you held at the time, and I think --

9 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. It's alleged that you

10 are acting out of fear in denouncing the principles you held at the time.

11 You should have the opportunity of answering that.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not giving up those views out of

13 fear. I only believe that advocating such stands on the division of

14 peoples in states was groundwork for conflict in war, and it was a

15 premise, as it turned out, for the beginning of ethnic clashes on the

16 territory of Yugoslavia, which brought about horrors and destruction.

17 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Wasn't it precisely the stand of Serbia and my own personal stand

19 that peoples should not separate, that they should stay together, to

20 preserve Yugoslavia instead? And I'm claiming, and was claiming at the

21 time, that only if we preserve Yugoslavia, the Serbian people would remain

22 within one state, because by creating that state in 1918, they began

23 living in one state, although they populated various territories in that

24 part of the world.

25 A. You said that only that people would remain within one state,

Page 13798

1 whereas self-determination was divided across republics. Parts of other

2 republics who did not favour that sort of Yugoslavia also had the right to

3 self-determination, and that caused the war.

4 Q. Let us look at the facts. It is senseless to repeat over and over

5 again this lecture about Serbia and myself personally working for

6 divisions and separation. If we had done that, Serbia would not have been

7 the only one who remained with an unchanged ethnic composition throughout

8 these years. We worked on the country for unity and preserving

9 Yugoslavia. And this declaration which you are denouncing now reflects an

10 honourable and principled position, and you degraded it by the moves you

11 made. [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted] Wasn't this the way to resolve these principled issues? You

16 approached them in a completely wrong way, which you are now trying to

17 blame on your associates --

18 JUDGE MAY: Now, you've been told before, Mr. Milosevic, that

19 speeches are not questions, and we've had a speech which has lasted a

20 minute and a half. We'll go into private session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13799

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 13799-13817 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13818

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Is it true that the Republic of Serbian Krajina set up a state

Page 13819

1 commission for war crimes and the crimes of genocide, headed by Mile

2 Dakic?

3 A. There was some commission, but who dealt with these issues, I

4 really don't know. There was something in this area. I don't really

5 know. I believe Dakic dealt with historical issues, whereas somebody else

6 dealt with certain facts that had to do with hostilities. Strbac, I

7 believe.

8 Q. I didn't ask you about the staffing of that commission. I asked

9 you whether Krajina formed a state commission for war crimes, headed by

10 Mile Dakic.

11 A. I know that Dakic dealt with some historical facts, but whether it

12 was within a state commission, I don't know.

13 Q. Do you know about his letter of 30th September 1994 - and I assume

14 you should be aware of it, in light of your job - a letter addressed to

15 the Ministry of Justice of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in Knin, to

16 which letter there was attached a list of established perpetrators of war

17 crimes from 1990 to 1991, and he enumerated all sorts of crimes committed

18 against the population of Krajina, descriptions of victims and

19 perpetrators. And do you know whether the judiciary of the Krajina

20 instituted proceedings in a single case from that list?

21 A. I don't remember that document exactly. I know that there were

22 proceedings in the judiciary against perpetrators. I have already said

23 all I knew about this, all that I could remember.

24 Q. Answer this now: Why are you making up that at some reception in

25 Belgrade in December 1990, or January 1991, you heard from Dobrica Cosic

Page 13820

1 that Bosnian Krajina and Serbian Krajina should unite and become the

2 seventh Yugoslav Republic?

3 A. I heard that from academician Raskovic, who said that it was an

4 idea of Dobrica Cosic. That was before December 1990. So it was before

5 his departure for America, and he spoke about it after he returned from

6 America. That's the way he spoke. Raskovic said, namely, that it was

7 Dobrica Cosic who told him about this. Raskovic advocated this thesis

8 about the unification of the two Krajinas at rallies in the autumn, and he

9 even said that at the water of the Una River, the two Krajinas should be

10 united.

11 Q. So you said before that it was an idea of this person whom we

12 qualified as your alter ego. How come you are saying something totally

13 different now? Did you make this up?

14 A. We are now discussing political ideas presented in autumn 1990 and

15 the events that we discussed in closed session were from June and July

16 1991.

17 Q. Of course. June and July 1991. At one point you said that in

18 January 1991 you heard this from Dobrica Cosic at the reception in

19 Belgrade.

20 A. I didn't say that.

21 Q. Well, why don't you take a look at your own statements? They are

22 pretty long, so you can hardly keep check of all the untruths you've

23 uttered. But that's your problem. Anyway, we've cleared this up. You've

24 made it all up.

25 A. I didn't.

Page 13821

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you are making speeches. You're not to

2 comment on the witness's evidence. You can do that in due course, such

3 comment as you want. But for the moment you're supposed to be asking

4 questions and not making denigrating comments about the witnesses.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think when Mr. Milosevic

11 becomes so very specific about public appearances, I think this should be

12 done in private session.

13 JUDGE MAY: Private session.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13822

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13823

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 13823 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13824

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 13824 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13825

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 13825 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13826

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. And is it true that Mladic and the other officers of the JNA from

20 the 9th Corps you called dirty communists?

21 THE INTERPRETER: "Komunare" is the term in Serbian, interpreter's

22 note.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember using that term

24 publicly. In 1992 in the political discussions surrounding the Vance

25 Plan, these terms -- a lot of these kinds of terms were bandied about.

Page 13827

1 I'm not sure about that particular one. I don't know which circumstance

2 you have in mind.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Tell me, then: Is the reason for your conflict with Mladic the

5 call for mobilisation immediately prior to the deblocking of the JNA

6 barracks in Zadar, Sibenik, and Split?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right, then. Is it true - let me be very specific here - that

9 you called upon the inhabitants of Knin not to respond to the call-up, not

10 to fight in a non-Serb army but to join the Territorial Defence, which you

11 called at the time the only pure, real, true Serb army? Is that right?

12 A. It is not in the way that you described.

13 Q. How was it, then?

14 A. The call to mobilisation was a public call, and it was a

15 government decision taken by the SAO Krajina on the basis of certain

16 decisions pursuant to some decisions of the rump Presidency of the SFRY,

17 in October 1991. And they were called to mobilise within the forces of

18 the SFRY. And there was another call-up in September. There was

19 activities to mobilise certain JNA units at the request of the competent

20 commands of the JNA.

21 Q. And what then? What next? Were you opposed to that?

22 A. I am telling you what I personally took part in.

23 Q. All right. Do you know that you weren't the only one who said

24 that the JNA was a non-Serb army and that therefore people shouldn't

25 respond to the call-up, to the mobilisation call, that there were a lot of

Page 13828

1 rumours going round of that nature, even in Serbia itself, that the JNA

2 should be disbanded and a Serb guard set up in its place and so on and so

3 forth? Do you remember any of that?

4 A. The first part of your question I answered in my previous answer,

5 and it is not as you say. And what was the second part of your question?

6 I said yes, I responded to the decisions of the Yugoslav state Presidency

7 and the calls of the JNA commands in September and October 1991 to

8 mobilise the citizens into units and structures of the SFRY. What was

9 your question?

10 Q. About the calls for people not to respond to the mobilisation

11 call-up into the ranks of the JNA, from those days. Do you know that that

12 happened, that they tried to undermine the JNA from within?

13 A. As I know there was quite a lot of opposition in Serbia itself to

14 this idea on the part of individuals and groups of people and they went

15 out onto the streets to demonstrate against the mobilisation for the JNA

16 in September and in the autumn of 1991. That's what happened in Serbia,

17 and that is common knowledge.

18 Q. So you say you weren't working against this mobilisation call-up

19 in Krajina, and your explanation was that it was a traitor army, as you

20 said, it was not a purely Serb army, and so on and so forth.

21 A. Well, I've already answered that. I don't understand --

22 Q. So you say that that's not what you actually did do.

23 A. Well, I said what we did in Krajina. I've just explained that.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 13829

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13830

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness and Mr. Milosevic were referring

2 to tab 161 from Exhibit 352. It's the mobilisation call of the 26th of

3 October, 1991.

4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

5 Yes, Mr. Milosevic. Let's move on from this. We've been going

6 round in circles.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 Q. An intercept was played here, as they call it, an intercept, where

9 I am appealing to Karadzic to stand up to that wave of opposition to the

10 JNA, and to wield his political influence to have people respond to the

11 call-up. Did you hear that?

12 A. I heard the transcript of your conversation with Karadzic with

13 respect to mobilisation.

14 Q. Yes. Well, was the JNA an armed force which had the task of

15 defending and protecting the entire territory of Yugoslavia and all the

16 Yugoslav peoples within it?

17 A. The JNA represented the armed forces of the SFRY. That's what it

18 was.

19 Q. All right. And is it common knowledge that in the events that

20 took place before it was attacked itself, and before this mass blockade of

21 the barracks started, the killing of soldiers and all the rest of it, that

22 it exclusively presented a buffer zone, a buffer, between the conflicting

23 parties, the warring parties, including the area of the Republic of Srpska

24 Krajina and other territory where clashes had taken place at that time,

25 within that time frame? Isn't that right?

Page 13831

1 A. I told you about what I knew as to how the JNA was deployed in the

2 area of Krajina. It was deployed after the incident which was provoked by

3 the police, or rather, the parallel structures, which you headed, and that

4 was the reason why the JNA was deployed on the territory.

5 Q. Now, I don't want to discuss those parallel structures that you

6 have conjured up yourself and construed, but I want to ask something about

7 the general climate and mood, and you are trying to avoid speaking about

8 that. So I have several questions in that regard.

9 Is it true that with the introduction of the multiparty system

10 into the SFRY in 1989, we saw an escalation in nationalistic, secessionist

11 tendencies?

12 A. The multiparty system in the former Yugoslavia was introduced

13 successively in the republics. Each republic would bring its own laws to

14 that effect.

15 Q. I'm not asking you that. Answer my question, please. Was there a

16 burgeoning of nationalist, secessionist tendencies, precisely within that

17 time span?

18 A. Well, I can say specifically, if -- I could give you a specific

19 answer if you tell me what party, what republic, what time you have in

20 mind.

21 Q. Well, I'm asking for you in the situation in Croatia, for example,

22 in 1989, as well as in 1990, that is to say, before the elections, after

23 the elections, prior to the HDZ coming to power, after the HDZ had come

24 into power, was there an escalation of nationalist secessionist

25 tendencies?

Page 13832

1 A. Well, in 1989, that was one period of time when power and

2 authority was in the hands of the League of Communists of Croatia, that is

3 to say, the institutions that the League controlled. Now, do you want me

4 to say what the policy of the League of Communists of Croatia was in 1989

5 or what your policy was in Croatia in that same year? I don't understand

6 what you're asking me.

7 Q. Do you mean to say that I don't know my own policy in Croatia?

8 But in 1989, yes, indeed, what I'm talking about is the wave of

9 nationalism that swept the country. Did you happen to notice anything in

10 Croatia in 1989 and 1990 to that effect?

11 A. Well, I've spoken about that before this Tribunal. I said what

12 I'd noticed and what things happened at that time. Do you want me to

13 speak about each of these events individually? If so, I'm ready to do so.

14 Q. All right. And is it true that in Croatia it was this trend, this

15 increase of nationalism, that enabled the HDZ party, as a nationalistic

16 group, to come to the fore, to take the head positions on the political

17 arena, and to all intents and purposes to stand at the head of all the

18 anti-Yugoslav forces by the same token? Was that how things were?

19 A. The HDZ won the elections in Croatia in April and May 1991. It

20 won the majority vote and got a place in the Sabor, or Assembly of

21 Croatia. It received the support of the citizens for its programme. The

22 majority voted for that party.

23 Q. And is it true -- or before we move on to this other area, one,

24 the elections, do you remember the percentages, how many votes there were

25 in favour?

Page 13833

1 A. A third.

2 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. The witness said "majority."

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Well, would you check that out? I'd like you to look up the

5 percentages.

6 A. There was a majority vote. We voted in the electoral units, so it

7 won the majority of deputies for the Sabor, or Assembly. What the exact

8 percentage was, I can't remember.

9 Q. Well, that's true, it did win a majority of deputies in the

10 Assembly. It got the vote.

11 Now, is it also true that preventing this quite obviously

12 disputable right of the Serb people to self-determination, that this was

13 justified in Croatia by promises that were made to the effect that a

14 future independent state of Croatia, as it said in its programme, in its

15 plan and programme, that it would be independent, that this was justified

16 by promises that the state would be a democratic one, a multi-ethnic one,

17 a multiconfessional one, multicultural? Was that -- were those the

18 promises that were made, the main incentive and arguments for the fact

19 that nothing -- saying that nothing would change when the Serbs were

20 pushed out of the constitution as a constituent peoples?

21 A. This was a basic political issue, and the political parties of

22 Serbs in Croatia and the Serbs clashed there on the one side with the

23 newly established Croatian authorities on the other, and this was

24 unleashed, as of May 1990, up until December 1990, when the new Croatian

25 constitution was adopted. The first polemics started in that period of

Page 13834

1 time, and there was a clash of political views with respect to the

2 proposals made by the Presidency, led by Franjo Tudjman, the Croatian

3 Presidency, about the constitutional amendments to the constitution of the

4 Socialist Republic of Croatia.

5 And I spoke specifically on that subject. This gave rise to

6 resistance and political opposition on the part of the representatives of

7 the Serb people, or rather, the parties representing the Serb people, and

8 I made a number of speeches on that occasion, as I did in December 1990,

9 when the new constitution was enacted and passed of the Republic of

10 Croatia, where it was no longer stipulated that the state of Croatia was

11 also a state of the Serb peoples living in Croatia. But that constitution

12 mentioned the Serbs as being a national minority, which in fact meant that

13 they did not have the right to self-determination. And this

14 constitutional determination of this constituent peoples, as they had been

15 up until that time, and recognises the right of peoples to

16 self-determination, up until secession from the republic, by this new

17 constitution, the December constitution of 1990 in Croatia, this right was

18 rescinded. It no longer existed. It was declared null and void. And so

19 before the constitution went through, the Serbian autonomous province of

20 Krajina, we wanted to establish it on the basis of the constitution of the

21 Socialist Republic of Croatia, which were in force until December 1990.

22 Q. Could you make it brief, please.

23 A. Including the amendments adopted in July 1990.

24 Q. Well, did we have a discussion of principle at that time too?

25 Because those people who wanted to break away said they wanted to go into

Page 13835

1 Europe, move and become part of Europe within the process of European

2 integration, and we asked ourselves: How come we're going to be included

3 into the process of European integration quicker if, before that, we break

4 up what had already been integrated as a multi-ethnic and multicultural

5 factor, the kind of Yugoslavia that -- and the Yugoslavia that was a

6 successful model? Was that clear?

7 A. What are you talking about?

8 Q. Well, I'm talking about our public statements made with respect to

9 those false explanations given, that we'd reach European integration

10 quicker if we first of all break up Yugoslavia's integration. So whose

11 idea was that?

12 A. I was saying that there were two dominant political options at the

13 time as to the future of Yugoslavia. One of those options was a federal

14 one, a federalist one, which was your own. You came out in favour of a

15 strong federation, and the right of nations to self-determination and the

16 right of peoples to remain within Yugoslavia. The second concept at that

17 time was Franjo Tudjman's concept, and Slovenia's concept, according to

18 which the republics should form a confederative alliance, or rather, to

19 reach an agreement on the disassociation of these entities.

20 Q. You've already said that.

21 A. With respect to the European community, I don't know what your

22 question was specifically in that regard.

23 Q. Very well. You're using a lot of time for explanations in answer

24 to things that I'm not asking you about. Tell me, with precision: Is it

25 true that with the victory of the HDZ at the elections in 1990, this

Page 13836

1 marked the beginning of an intensified anti-Serb campaign manifested in

2 day-to-day life as well, which Raskovic described as an aggression of

3 consciousness? It came to expression in the streets, at workplaces,

4 through the press, posters, and so on, and even at the administrative

5 level, which confirmed that this was an official policy towards the Serbs

6 because there was massive firings from the state administration, and

7 especially the police, and even from economic enterprises. There were

8 pogroms, unlawful arrests that their own officials are even now talking

9 about, the disappearance of individuals.

10 JUDGE MAY: The witness must have the chance to answer questions,

11 insofar as these are questions. They sound more like speeches.

12 But do you agree that after the elections in 1990, there was an

13 intensified anti-Serb campaign? That's the real point that's being made.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the policy of the HDZ, that

15 Croatia be defined as a national state of Croats and the Serbs get the

16 status of a national minority. And the Serb representatives interpreted

17 this as being anti-Serb.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I'm not asking you about the interpretations of a political view.

20 I'm asking you what you know about the dismissals, about the arrests,

21 about the disappearance of individuals, about killings, repression.

22 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer.

23 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. So according to you, nobody got killed.

25 JUDGE MAY: The witness must answer. Let him answer.

Page 13837

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13838

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as firing is concerned, from

2 jobs, most dismissals occurred in the state administration, and especially

3 in the police. Then people were also dismissed from other companies, and

4 the Serbs saw this as being directed against them. Serbs were losing

5 jobs. The Croatian authority justified this with the fact that the

6 economy required it, that enterprises were not profitable. As for

7 killings, murders, in 1990, I don't -- I'm not able to remember which

8 murders you're referring to.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. So you don't know anything about what was happening in Croatia in

11 1990?

12 A. Many things were happening.

13 Q. What I mean is, you don't know of any murders, unlawful arrests,

14 deportations, disappearance? You know nothing about that, do you?

15 A. I can't remember any murders.

16 Q. That's fine. You don't know anything about the murder of Serbs in

17 1990 anywhere in Croatia.

18 Tell me, then, please, since you want to stick to this political

19 level and you don't want to go into these concrete and banal events, such

20 as killings, that you never heard of --

21 A. I'm telling you what I know. Remind me. Perhaps you know

22 something I don't know.

23 Q. As far as I know, you had such a killing in your own family.

24 A. That was in August 1991.

25 Q. You probably don't remember that either.

Page 13839

1 A. You're asking me about 1990?

2 Q. Yes. I'm asking you first about 1990. Later on, I'll ask you

3 about 1991. But your answer is very important to me about 1990, that you

4 don't know anything.

5 A. I don't remember any killings from 1990.

6 Q. Is it true that among the moves whereby such a discriminatory

7 attitude towards the Serbian people was to be justified, and the abolition

8 of their status, the changes in the constitution, was the census -- I have

9 the data, but I would like to hear your interpretation. According to

10 Croatian data, in the 1991 census, there were 581.663 inhabitants of Serb

11 ethnicity, or 12.2 per cent. And according to Serb calculations, there

12 were 750.000 of them, or just over that, which would mean just over 17 per

13 cent. What is your knowledge regarding these data, and was this an

14 instance of manipulation that I mentioned at the beginning of my question?

15 A. I know the following: The census documents from 1991 for the area

16 of a part of SAO Krajina were submitted to the federal statistical

17 institute.

18 Q. I'm not talking about the technique.

19 A. But it was not submitted to the Croatian republican institute.

20 Secondly, it was noted that many Yugoslavs were actually Serbs. So I

21 accept the statistics as they were, but there is also another

22 interpretation that most of those who declared themselves to be Yugoslavs

23 were actually Serb, and there were also some interpretations that some

24 Serbs did not dare state their ethnicity as being Serbian. There was

25 reference to that too in those days. That was the discussion with respect

Page 13840

1 to the census.

2 Q. So you know nothing else about it?

3 A. I know what was happening in Krajina, and I know that the census

4 documents were not submitted to Zagreb but to Belgrade.

5 Q. I would say that you must have known more. For instance,

6 regarding the referendum that you organised and in which the Serbs in

7 Croatia participated, how many votes were counted at that referendum?

8 A. There is a report of the commission, so it wasn't a referendum. A

9 legal provision was applied on the right of citizens to declare their

10 ethnicity --

11 Q. I'm not asking you about that. I'm just asking you about the

12 number of votes.

13 A. The Serbs living in Croatia took part, but also Serbs living in

14 Serbia and elsewhere in the world - in France or other countries - so

15 there were about -- more than 500.000 votes cast. Those were the results

16 filed by the commission.

17 Q. It seems to me that you should know better than I do the exact

18 figure. As far as I can remember, I saw it only once. There were 570

19 something thousand votes.

20 A. It seems to me it was 530.000.

21 Q. We'll find the exact figure. That shouldn't be a problem. Maybe

22 your memory is not quite as good as mine, which of course is no wonder.

23 But the number of those who cast their votes, doesn't that number seem to

24 be much closer to the census figure? Because, as you know, only the

25 inhabitants of age cast their vote, so the real number must have been

Page 13841

1 greater.

2 A. Let me say that it is not quite certain that the process was

3 technically correct, and some doubts lingered as to whether people outside

4 Krajina were not counted twice in that report. But that was just a doubt.

5 That's as much as I know about the commission's report. However, as far

6 as I know, the Serbian National Council accepted the commission in charge

7 of this process and these were the data presented to the public.

8 Q. Tell me, Mr. Croatia-061, are you now accusing the Serbian

9 National Council from that period of having forged the number of people

10 who cast their votes in the referendum, that that wasn't actually correct?

11 A. As I have taken an oath to tell the truth in this Tribunal, I'm

12 telling you of what I know, and I'm not presenting anything but that, but

13 my knowledge about these things.

14 Q. And your knowledge tells you that those were actually votes by

15 Serbs from France and other countries. I don't remember what other

16 countries you mentioned. So not just Serbs living in Croatia.

17 A. That's right. The Serbs in Croatia, the Serbs originating from

18 Croatia, and their descendents in Serbia, and in the diaspora, Serbs

19 originally from Croatia. I mentioned France specifically because I know

20 exactly that reports came in from Paris.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, for your assistance, we are

22 talking about the report on the referendum, tab 11 of Exhibit 351, and

23 it's actually -- mentioned 567.317 people, so about 567.000.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. As you obviously now remember better, allegedly remember better

Page 13842

1 the facts now than when they actually happened, do you also remember that

2 there was an initiative to form a Croatian Orthodox Church which existed

3 very briefly only during the days of Pavelic's NDH, independent state of

4 Croatia?

5 A. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.

6 Q. Do you remember that there was an idea to form a Croatian Orthodox

7 Church, such as existed only during the time of Pavelic's NDH?

8 A. There was talk about it as being the intention of the new Croatian

9 authorities.

10 Q. And you know nothing about that? "I know that this was said to

11 have been the intention of the Croatian authorities." Why are you again

12 speaking indefinitely? Who was it who was saying this?

13 A. I can't remember exactly who was saying it. I know there was a

14 man originally from Drnis who spoke about this. He said that he intended

15 to form such a church. I don't know with precision. I can't tell you,

16 because I don't know exactly. I do know that such a man existed. What

17 his religion was, whether he was an Orthodox, a Catholic, a Serbo-Croat, I

18 don't know exactly, but I do know that he specifically spoke about it, and

19 also there was talk about it among the Serbs, that the new Croatian

20 authority intends to form such a church. That is as much as I know from

21 that time.

22 Q. I have been given a quotation here of the late Jovan Raskovic,

23 academician, and I will quote him. He says:

24 "The Serb people feels all this as a call to history for

25 recidivism. It spreads new apprehensions and old doubts. After all this,

Page 13843

1 the Croato-Serbian relationships acquire a new aspect of paranoia. The

2 Croatian paranoia diminishes the Ustasha genocide and the Serb is renewing

3 the genocidal memories."

4 Were you on good terms with Raskovic in those days?

5 A. I can say that Raskovic did speak along those lines at the time.

6 Q. And did you share that opinion too?

7 A. I expressed my opinion in public. What you have quoted is a

8 conglomeration of views.

9 Q. Shall we move a little faster when we talk about this climate? So

10 before the elections in 1990, long before the elections - and I'm talking

11 about this wave of nationalism - do you remember the event of the 15th of

12 March, 1990 - the elections took place later - that Ustasha symbols were

13 inscribed on the Serbian Orthodox Church premises in Zagreb, the capital

14 of Croatia?

15 A. There were incidents of that kind.

16 Q. So this was in March 1990, during a period when you say that the

17 communists were in power in Croatia and they held the situation in

18 control. But the communists did not control the Ustashas, certainly. And

19 do you remember that on the 16th of March, 1990, the inhabitants of

20 Biograd On The Sea, a small tourist town close to Zadar, who read the

21 Belgrade press were left without it because the entire delivery of press

22 was confiscated and thrown away, and a report to that effect appeared in

23 the press, you could have read that, on the 17th and 18th of March, 1990.

24 A. I do remember some incidents of that kind in Primosten, and the

25 intolerant attitude of the locals towards tourists from Serbia. There

Page 13844

1 were quite a lot of reports to that effect in the media.

2 Q. And do you remember that on the 30th of August, 1990, volunteer

3 youth units of the civil defence of Croatia - you remember that? -

4 volunteer youth units of the civil defence of Croatia, which were joined

5 by persons from 15 to 30 years of age, started to form in local communes

6 and municipalities in the city of Zagreb. Such units began to be formed

7 there on the 30th of August. Do you remember?

8 A. Yes. I heard of the formation of such volunteer units. I don't

9 remember exactly as of which date.

10 Q. Well, what did you hear about it? Did you have any knowledge

11 about it? You just heard about it, without anything more specific?

12 A. It was said that this marked the beginning of the formation of

13 armed groups at the beginning of 1991. It was said that those groups were

14 being armed and that in this way the HDZ was arming its members and

15 creating its own army. That was the explanation given in January. Those

16 were the interpretations. There was even a photograph of Branimir Glavas,

17 from Osijek - I don't exactly remember the date - showing a pistol stuck

18 in his belt.

19 Q. Do you remember, for example, a more large-scale event: 800

20 faithful and priests, on the 24th of October, in Zagreb - this is the

21 Serbian Orthodox Church of the Holy Transfiguration - demanded protection

22 because of increased attacks? 800 of them demanding protection in October

23 1990? Did you know anything about that?

24 A. I know from Metropolitan Jovan that he had to leave Zagreb, that

25 he couldn't remain in his eparchy because of these developments.

Page 13845

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 13846

1 Q. And do you remember, then, with respect to such parallel

2 paramilitary formations that were being formed called Tjelesni Zdrug, the

3 Croatian National Guards Corps, the Sokola Guards, volunteer youth units

4 that I've already mentioned, et cetera, et cetera? Do you remember all

5 these organised formations, when they started to act, what their purpose

6 was, and what was going on, and whether anyone was disturbed as a result

7 of this?

8 A. I know when the Croatian National Guard Corps was formed as an

9 army of the Croatian government. That took place in mid-1991, in the

10 spring. And then there were others, as far as I know, the so-called

11 unarmed youth organisations and the ones you mentioned. You mentioned the

12 various names. There were rumours of that. People were talking about it.

13 But I didn't see it personally in Krajina, where I lived.

14 Q. So you want to say that you know nothing about that either?

15 A. I heard about it, and I know what -- as much as I heard.

16 Q. All right. Fine. Do you remember that the Croatian Assembly, in

17 1990, passed an amendment to the Croatian constitution, abolishing the

18 Cyrillic script?

19 A. I have already said that this unleashed great polemics, this

20 amendment to the constitution that was adopted on the 25th of July, 1995,

21 and that we were very much against this. And I took part in this

22 political resistance against having amendments of this kind adopted. And

23 I said that the Assembly, the Sabor in Srb, was organised in order to

24 demonstrate resistance to the adoption of amendments of that kind. And at

25 that time, we saw this as being outvoting, the majority voting over the

Page 13847

1 minority in the Croatian parliament.

2 Q. All right. Well, as we're on the subject of the constitution of

3 Croatia, is it true that the Croatian authorities did not uphold any of

4 the amendments that the Serbs favoured in the constitution?

5 A. Well, my knowledge on that score is the following: First, that

6 Raskovic was elected to the commission for preparing the constitution,

7 drafting the constitution of Croatia. I don't think it took part in its

8 work, though. And secondly, that the municipalities of Northern Dalmatia

9 and Lika sent in a draft for the statute of SAO Krajina to the Croatian

10 authorities as a proposal for discussing the new Croatian constitution.

11 Now, how many other amendments there were, I don't know. There were other

12 amendments tabled by deputies from other parties.

13 Q. All right. So you don't seem to be able to answer my question --

14 A. I apologise. What was the question?

15 Q. The question was: Is it true that the new Croatian authorities

16 did not introduce a single amendment tabled and proposed by the Serbs, and

17 the main one, of course, was that the Serbs in the new constitution should

18 retain their status of nation, as they had enjoyed in the previous

19 constitution, but many other amendments too and that not a single one of

20 them was adopted. Is that true or not?

21 A. I don't know how many amendments there were, but it is true that

22 the Croatian parliament, in passing the constitution, as was popularly

23 said, threw the Serbs out of the Croatian constitution. That is true, and

24 we did oppose this fervently. We engaged in political debate and

25 discussion and tabled a number of proposals, but none of that was taken

Page 13848

1 into account. However, there were other possibilities open as well, which

2 means that there were discussions about a so-called proposal for cultural

3 autonomy, which wasn't implemented at the time, and some other models

4 which were not put into practice either, due to the escalation of

5 incidents and raising of political tensions and conflicts to the level of

6 incidents and - how shall I put it? - armed provocations as well, which

7 meant this was a parallel structure which was burgeoning in Krajina, and

8 that contributed, by the same token, to the fact that there was not a

9 climate of tolerance for discussing the adoption of the new Croatian

10 constitution. I'm not amnestying, if I can put it that way, this kind of

11 nationalism at that time and auto-centrism and the authorities that

12 brought in the new Croatian constitution without taking into account the

13 views of the minority, or rather, the Serb people in Croatia, which had

14 been a constituent peoples.

15 Q. Well, all right. In this series of discriminatory laws, for

16 example, the law on basic education, primary education, was that such that

17 it did not provide for tuition for children of Serb ethnicity? And then

18 there was the law on education and the languages of the nations and

19 nationalities. It provided tuition for Hungarians, Ruthenians, Armenians

20 and all the rest, and not the Serb language in Serb schools.

21 A. This we saw as a perfidious policy on the part of the HDZ and the

22 majority in the Croatian parliament to change the name of the language and

23 the standard language that they called Croatian -- the literary language

24 of Croatia, to impose it to the Serb people in Croatia.

25 Q. What was the language called up until that time? What was the

Page 13849

1 name of the language?

2 A. That language underwent a historical evolution.

3 Q. In Croatia, it was known as Croato-Serbian and in Serbian it was

4 called Serbo-Croatian.

5 A. It was first called Croato-Serbian, then it was later on called by

6 an unwieldy name, a very long formulation and construction, that in

7 Croatia -- the language that was in use was Croatian, or Serbian, so

8 Croatian literary language, which is called either the Croatian or the

9 Serbian language, and then that formulation was changed and altered to say

10 that the Croatian literary language was in official use in Croatia. So

11 this was a long period of time with different variations and adjustments

12 of the official language, as it was defined in Croatia, and this was

13 interpreted in different ways and it was indeed the imposition of one

14 particular variant of the language onto the Serbs as well. So this one

15 variation was imposed on the Serbs and it was promoted by the ruling

16 parties in the Croatian parliament.

17 Q. All right. There were many other laws. We mentioned them earlier

18 on. Now, if we place all these laws into the context of the adoption of

19 fascist emblems and symbols of a state, of a country, abolishing the right

20 of the constituent peoples, the Serbs, the unlawful arming of paramilitary

21 units, arrests, killings, and similar occurrences, does that lead us to

22 the conclusion that the Croatian authorities promoted not only nationalism

23 in Croatia but fascism and a discriminatory approach to the Serbs in

24 Croatia, and did this lead to a great deal of unrest? Did it upset the

25 Serbs?

Page 13850

1 A. This was all your terminology used at the time.

2 Q. Well, were they facts or were they terminology? So who stirred up

3 the people and caused disturbances with the arrests, killings,

4 persecutions, dismissals, new laws, amendments to the constitution, and so

5 on and so forth? Were those facts or were they fabrications on the part

6 of the Belgrade media?

7 A. Well, we can mention some basic facts there, three basic facts, in

8 fact: The policy of the HDZ and the Croatian authorities, and their

9 relationship toward the Serbs; then we have political resistance and

10 nonacquiescence of the Serbs with those kind of changes; and third, your

11 meddling in the conflict in such a way as to produce a greater conflict.

12 You fanned the flames of the conflict.

13 Q. I don't know that anybody from Serbia provoked any incidents, and

14 if our interference in this very unwelcome turn of events -- well, whose

15 interference was there in 1971 and in 1941? Was it also interference on

16 the part of the same people or not?

17 JUDGE MAY: We don't need to go back then. I think we've probably

18 finished for the day. Let me add this: Mr. Milosevic, you have six hours

19 left, if you want it, up to six hours.

20 Mr. Tapuskovic, we've considered your application, and we will

21 certainly grant you up to one hour to cross-examine this witness in due

22 course.

23 And half an hour for the re-examination.

24 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall abide by

25 your decision, of course, but I should like you to understand that all the

Page 13851

1 material and documents that I have looked through and had in my hands is

2 so extensive that I will, of course, do my best to get through it in one

3 hour, but I do really think that we amicus should be given at least a

4 little more time in this particular instance. I will try to do my best,

5 but --

6 JUDGE MAY: We've considered your application. You've got an

7 hour. So tailor your examination accordingly. We must let this witness

8 go. He's been giving evidence for about ten days.

9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, but I assume that it is more

10 important to get to the bottom of things rather than release a witness.

11 JUDGE MAY: Not at the expense -- one of our duties,

12 Mr. Tapuskovic, is to conduct a trial expeditiously, and that we must do.

13 Now, we'll have your application in mind. We'll --

14 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, then, I'm not sure whether

15 I can perform my duty. I really do have to ask myself whether to continue

16 in this position.

17 JUDGE MAY: You have one hour. Now, then, tomorrow morning,

18 please, 9.00.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of

21 December 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

22

23

24

25