Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13387

1 Monday, 25 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: We'll deal with some administrative matters first.

7 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we've had notice that the plenary will now

8 take place on the 12th and the 13th of December, two of the original days

9 which were fixed. It will not take place on the 11th, and therefore we

10 shall sit that day, having in mind the time that's been lost. We will

11 sit, of course, on the 18th, where we said we would have administrative

12 matters. It may be that, if we get that far, there may be some evidence

13 to be finished up, and closer to the time, we'll decide whether we'll sit

14 that afternoon or not, but the parties should have that time available for

15 sitting, if necessary.

16 Yes.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 WITNESS: WITNESS C-061 [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

21 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

22 A. Good morning. Yes.

23 Q. Witness, you have already described the pattern of attacks that

24 you saw occurring, and you have described the military formation present

25 in particular regions, and I would like to discuss with you now what you

Page 13388

1 can tell us about crimes occurring in particular places named in the

2 indictment.

3 The first place I would like to turn to is the Kostajnica region,

4 in particular, the regions Dubica, Cerovljani, and Bacin. On Friday you

5 testified that fighting took place in this region until September 1991,

6 and you also testified at an earlier point in time that you observed the

7 fighting personally from the Bosnia side of the river.

8 You also mentioned already that you travelled through the region

9 in November 1991, on your way to Petrinja, and that you saw the Croatian

10 villages or parts of villages where Croats had lived, that they were

11 destroyed and the population gone.

12 You also already mentioned a military headquarters in Samarica,

13 and my question to you is: What kind of a facility was it? Was it -- of

14 what structure was it the headquarters?

15 A. At Samarica was the headquarters of the operative group for the

16 JNA for Banija and Kordun, and this headquarters was the military command

17 for the area. The 7th Banija Division had its headquarters up there as

18 well, as did the special police units, or rather -- well, that's it.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we actually had managed to

20 produce charts of the military formations on the ground at that time, and

21 with the help of the usher, I would like to put to the witness these

22 charts now. And it has three pages: one showing the TO structure, one

23 showing the JNA operational group that the witness just mentioned, and the

24 third is actually a map that is just showing you where the various places

25 are located.

Page 13389

1 Q. First of all, Witness, if you look at the first chart. And I have

2 to read it to you because it's in English language. It says: "Croatian

3 operative zones of the TO SAO Krajina," and it simply shows the command

4 structure, with the Prime Minister on top; the Main Staff of the TO, with

5 first General Djujic, and then, of course, you have already said that

6 changed; and then you have here the three operational zones: the first one

7 for Dalmatia and Lika, the second one Slunj, and the third one Kostajnica,

8 Petrinja, Sisak.

9 Is that correct? Is the chart correct in relation to the TO?

10 A. Underneath Slunj you should add Vojnic and Vrginmost. And

11 underneath Petrinja, what should be added is Glina and Dvor na Uni.

12 Otherwise, the rest is as it was here, was as it was in the chart.

13 Q. Yes. Thank you. And if you look at the second page, you have the

14 JNA Operation Group Banija-Kordun-Lika after October 1991, and it shows

15 here already the headquarters Samarica and its commander Jasan Maric.

16 Then you have the various sections, that is the 2nd and 3rd Operative Zone

17 of the TO with Colonel Vujaklija, JNA 5th Military District Units, then

18 the 6th Lika Division, the Loznica Brigade from Serbia that you mentioned,

19 and the Special Police Units Krajina, and then you also have here the

20 Banija Division attached to the TO, and the unspecified JNA units attached

21 to the 5th Military District.

22 Would that be correct?

23 A. It says "Operative Group Banija Kordun" here and "Lika." The

24 commander was General Spiro Nikovic in the month of November. I don't

25 know the dates, from when until when.

Page 13390

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. And then I'm not sure whether Lika was under this Operative Group

3 or whether it had its own command, the 6th Lika Division. But anyway, so

4 there, that's what it was like. This is what it was like.

5 And underneath the Loznica Brigade you should add the Sabac

6 Brigade from Serbia and the Vojvodina Brigade from Serbia as well, and a

7 paratrooper unit from Nis.

8 Q. The paratroop from Nis, did it have a particular -- did it have a

9 particular name?

10 A. It was a special paratroop unit. I don't know what the name was

11 exactly, whether that was its name or whether it had another one.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we put it on the overhead projector?

13 Yes. Yes. Thank you. And the third, the third page. Can you please

14 turn it around to the map. The third page. Can you please put the third

15 page on the ELMO.

16 Q. It's actually a map showing the 5th Military District region, the

17 Naval Military District region, and the places that we actually spoke

18 about so far. Looking at it, is it correct?

19 A. The border between the Naval Military District and the

20 5th Military District was here, this line. Lika belonged to the

21 5th Military District, and Northern Dalmatia to the Naval Military

22 District.

23 Q. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

24 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it's described as tab 120, this

25 exhibit. Which exhibit is that in?

Page 13391

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Tab 120 was actually the creation of the

2 Operational Zones and their composition with the three military

3 districts. But this would now, of course, need to have a different

4 exhibit number because it's an entirely new exhibit. It's just a

5 reference to the document that was discussed.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Give it a new number, please, the next number.

7 It's being suggested that we have tab 171 of 352. It probably makes very

8 little difference.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

12 Q. Witness, you had mentioned the 7th Banija Division and that

13 Mr. Bogdan Vajagic commanded it up to September 1991. Do you know who

14 commanded it in October, November 1991?

15 A. Bogdan Vajagic was his name, and the division was reformed,

16 restructured as a formation of the Territorial Defence, but it remained

17 the same in content.

18 Q. And you also mentioned that Special Police Units were also there,

19 so the units attached to the parallel structure. In -- in October, end of

20 October, and November 1991, who in person was there from the parallel

21 structure? Which commanding person?

22 A. His name was Borojevic, and he was the commander of that Special

23 Police Unit. His name was Borojevic.

24 Q. Were volunteer units or paramilitary units as well in that region

25 in Kostajnica attached to the Samarica headquarters?

Page 13392

1 A. I don't know.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please.

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Page 13393

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if the witness could point the

3 location of Samarica in this third tab in this map.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

5 Q. Witness, you heard Their Honours asking.

6 A. Yes, I can. Samarica is a hill which is located where the

7 Bosanski Novi -- or rather, Dvor na Uni, Kostajnica, and Petrinja

8 municipalities meet, which means here.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing, actually, at the

10 word "Banija," in the region of the word "Banija." This map is not

11 specific enough to show the place itself. Thank you.

12 JUDGE KWON: Is it near from Petrinja?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's between Kostajnica and

14 Petrinja, yes.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17 Q. Witness, when you were in the region in November, did you see the

18 villages Dubica, Cerovljani, and Bacin; and if so, what did they look like

19 in relation to the destruction that ...

20 A. Those villages were destroyed.

21 Q. Were there churches in these villages and were they destroyed as

22 well?

23 A. I don't know exactly. I arrived in Kostajnica from the Petrinja

24 direction, and I saw those villages afterwards, later on, and they had

25 been completely destroyed and without any inhabitants.

Page 13394

1 Q. The villagers, or the people living, the Croat people living in

2 these villages, had they posed a threat to the Serbs in the region in

3 October/November 1991?

4 A. No, they had not. The fighting was over by mid-September.

5 Q. You mentioned already you heard of killings. Did you get

6 information that 120 Croatian villagers from these three villages had been

7 killed in October 1991?

8 A. I didn't receive information to that effect. My information was

9 different, in 1994/1995.

10 Q. What was your information?

11 A. I heard from people from Dubica that they had taken revenge in

12 Bacin for what had happened in 1941.

13 Q. I would like to now move on to the region Korenica, Ogulin, and in

14 particular, the villages Saborsko, Poljanak, and Lipovanic. You have

15 already mentioned the training ground in Slunj and the officer Cedomir

16 Bulat being in charge there. Do you know which JNA corps were active in

17 this region end of November until mid - sorry - end of October until

18 mid-November 1991?

19 A. The command was active there, the command from Plitvice, that is,

20 Mukinje, and from the training ground. I had information that this was

21 the operative zone of the 6th Lika Division and units within it, or in

22 coordination -- acting in coordination with it or subordinated to it. I

23 also heard that there was an advance command position of the Rijeka Corps,

24 and that the Vojvodina Brigade was active there for a while, as well as

25 members of the paratroop units from Nis, and the Territorial Defence from

Page 13395

1 the area. Who was exactly the highest commanding officer or command, I

2 don't know. According to establishment, if there was a forward command

3 post the Rijeka Corps, then they must have had the highest-ranking officer

4 within it.

5 Q. Witness, was there also the 1st Partisan Light Brigade in this

6 region?

7 A. The 1st Partisan Light Brigade was within the territory of the

8 municipality of Gracac and a part of the municipality of Gospic, in the

9 southern part of Lika, not around Plitvice. Up there, I think it was the

10 5th Brigade that was active.

11 Q. Yes. I would briefly talk -- I would like to briefly talk to you

12 about this 1st Partisan Light Brigade. Who was its commander?

13 A. Colonel Petar Trbojevic.

14 Q. Was he a JNA officer?

15 A. Yes, a JNA officer, dispatched from the General Staff in September

16 1991 to form the 1st Light Partisan Brigade.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the -- I would like to have closed

18 session very briefly, for two questions.

19 [Private session]

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Page 13396

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

21 Q. Witness, looking at the two documents, are they related to the

22 mobilisation that you just mentioned to us, that is, a mobilisation order

23 of the 26th of October, 1991, and the other one also a mobilisation order

24 of that same day?

25 A. That's right.

Page 13397

1 Q. In the first document, there is a reference made to a mobilisation

2 issued by the SFRY Presidency of the 4th of October, 1991. Was that the

3 reason why this mobilisation was actually ordered?

4 A. Yes. This document refers to that, and this other one as well.

5 Q. Thank you. That should be enough. We don't need to discuss more

6 details on this matter.

7 In relation to the region of Plitvice and the villages Saborsko,

8 Poljanak, and Lipovanic, did the Korenica municipal TO staff cover that

9 same region, and if so, who was the commander there in October, November,

10 1991?

11 A. The Municipal Staff of the TO Korenica did cover it, but the

12 surrounding Serbian areas had been linked to the Korenica municipality.

13 And the commander of the Municipal Staff was Colonel Milos Cvijeticanin,

14 or Lieutenant Colonel.

15 Q. Was he an active JNA officer; do you know?

16 A. He had been an active officer in Zadar prior to that, and he

17 probably continued to be that.

18 Q. Was personnel of the DB Serbia in that region active in this

19 region; do you know?

20 A. Yes. After August 1991, a base of the DB of Serbia was in

21 Korenica or, rather, Frenki's base was there.

22 Q. Does that mean that Frenki himself was there, or who was there in

23 charge of this section?

24 A. I was told that those men from the DB were there. And I

25 personally had met Frenki there earlier, on earlier occasions.

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Page 13399

1 Q. You already mentioned the parachute units from Nis, and does -- do

2 they have special uniforms?

3 A. They wore red berets.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to go into closed session for

5 two questions.

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Page 13400

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2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

5 Q. In October/November 1991, were the villages Saborsko, Poljanak,

6 and Lipovanic surrounded by Serb villages?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did these villages at that time pose a threat to the Serbs in the

9 region?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When -- do you know when these villages were attacked?

12 A. There was fighting there around the 17th of November or

13 mid-November in 1991. So mid-November there was combat around Slunj, and

14 that is the region.

15 Q. Did you get the information that end of October until the 12th of

16 November, Croat civilians were killed in these three villages? Do you

17 know anything of that?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. I would like -- did you hear it later on? Did you get any

20 information later on about this?

21 A. Later on I saw - that is in 1994 - that the villages had been

22 destroyed and that they were abandoned, that there were no inhabitants in

23 them.

24 Q. I would like now to move to the third region, that is Northern

25 Dalmatia with Skabrnje, Nadin, and Bruska, and particularly the time

Page 13401

1 period November 1991 to February 1992. These villages that I just

2 mentioned, are they all in the Benkovac municipality or the Serbian -- the

3 so-called Serbian Zadar region?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Who was the president of the Benkovac municipality at that time,

6 November 1991 to February 1992?

7 A. Zdravko Zecevic.

8 Q. Was he related to Frenki, Martic, and the others of the parallel

9 structure?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was there a Crisis Staff in Benkovac? Do you know?

12 A. There was a Crisis Staff in Benkovac which was a body that was not

13 envisaged by the documents of the municipality but was formed on the

14 initiative of the local authorities in Benkovac itself.

15 Q. Was the Martic police involved in the Crisis Staff?

16 A. Yes, there were representatives, that is of the civilian

17 authorities, the police, the TO; therefore, all the structures that

18 existed within the municipality of Benkovac.

19 Q. Was the JNA involved in this Crisis Staff?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. You have already mentioned that Captain Dragan had a training

22 facility in the Benkovac region. Was he there in November 1991? Do you

23 know?

24 A. He would come in November 1991.

25 Q. And Frenki, was he also in this region in November 1991?

Page 13402

1 A. I don't know where Frenki was at that time.

2 Q. In relation to the Martic police in the region in November 1991,

3 do you know who was in charge of them there in this particular region of

4 Benkovac?

5 A. There was the regular police and the special police. The head of

6 the special police was Goran Opacic.

7 Q. Are you aware that Skabrnja and Nadin were attacked in November

8 1991?

9 A. There was some fighting there, but I don't know exactly the

10 location.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

12 put to the witness two exhibits. The first is tab 164 of Exhibit 352, and

13 the other one is tab 75 of that same exhibit.

14 Q. And looking at the first one, it is actually a note about fighting

15 concerning the Yugoslav army and Martic in the villages -- in the Croatian

16 villages in Benkovac municipality of September 1991.

17 Witness, this is a document compiled by the Croatian authorities,

18 and looking -- looking at it, on the second page there is a quote, and I

19 quote on the second page:

20 "In accordance with Colonel Mladic's orders, Martic's terrorists,

21 together with military reservists, are entering all houses by force,

22 robbing and taking everything they need and destroying the rest."

23 And my question is: Did that happen in that region as indicated

24 here in this note? Do you know?

25 A. Yes, that is how it was.

Page 13403

1 Q. And I have here the second document. It is a report of the SAO

2 Krajina headquarters of the 17th of September, 1991.

3 JUDGE MAY: Let's go back to the previous one,

4 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

6 JUDGE KWON: Which is the first document? Is it tab 165? 164.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 164.

8 JUDGE MAY: Let's get this right. It's 164, is it?

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it is actually a document provided by the

11 Croatian authorities, and I just wanted to address the contents of this

12 document with the witness, whether such attacks as described here, with

13 robbing and destroying, took place in the region. That was the purpose of

14 putting it to the witness. Yes.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we have that.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next document, tab 75.

17 Q. Witness, it's a report of the SAO Krajina headquarters of the 17th

18 of September, 1991. And if you look at the seal and the header, is that

19 a -- are they authentic?

20 A. They are.

21 Q. And what position did this person Maglov, Petar have? Do you know

22 that?

23 A. I can't remember exactly.

24 Q. In this document, there is the mentioning of the TO Benkovac staff

25 on the first page and an order given by Milan Martic. And as point 2,

Page 13404

1 there is mentioned: "Have an armoured train go from Kosovo station to

2 near Tepljuh and open heavy fire on the region of Siveric." What kind of

3 an armoured train was it?

4 A. It was an armoured train that Frenki made in Strmica, a combat

5 armoured train.

6 Q. And who was in charge of this train? Do you know who commanded

7 the conduct of this train?

8 A. Guska was his name.

9 Q. To whom was he related? Was he part of this parallel structure?

10 Who was he subordinated to?

11 A. Frenki and Martic.

12 Q. In relation to the villages Skabrnja and Nadin, did they pose a

13 threat to the Serbs in the region, or the JNA, in November 1991?

14 A. To the Serbs, no; but in a sense, they jeopardised the flank of

15 the JNA forces in the region of Zemunik.

16 Q. In which way did they jeopardise the flank of the JNA units? Was

17 the Croatian army in these villages in November 1991?

18 A. I don't know exactly. I just know that General Vukovic said that

19 before the winter he had to level the lines where his units had been

20 deployed in that region, to even them out. I said General Vukovic.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please, for one question.

22 [Private session]

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Page 13405

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21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23 Q. Do you know when these villages, Skabrnja and Nadin, were attacked

24 and which -- in which way, which forces took part in it?

25 A. I learnt later -- I wasn't fully informed at the time. I was

Page 13406

1 later informed that these were Skabrnja and Nadin, in November 1991. JNA

2 units took part, as well as units that were coordinated by the Crisis

3 Staff in Benkovac, which means the TO and the police and all armed

4 formations that were in the area of Benkovac.

5 Q. Did you get information that Croatian civilians were murdered

6 during the attack?

7 A. I learnt later that they had been.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Private session, please.

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18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20 Q. This person Goran Opacic that you mentioned, did he have a

21 nickname?

22 A. Klempo was what they called him.

23 Q. Was he close to Milan Martic?

24 A. Yes, close, intimate.

25 Q. I would like now to move on to Bruska. You have already mentioned

Page 13408

1 Bruska and how you visited it. In December 1991, was there any fighting

2 in or around the village?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. Are you aware that ten civilians were killed in the village of

5 Bruska on the 21st of December, 1991, and how it came about?

6 A. I did hear about that, later on. And how it came about was that

7 Goran Opacic, with a few of his men, threw a bomb into the house where the

8 inhabitants were sitting. And Croats were killed, the Croats who were

9 there, and a Serb postman who was sitting there with them.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Closed session, please, for one question.

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23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

24 Q. Witness, with the help of the usher, I would like to put to you

25 Exhibit -- tab 166 of Exhibit 352. And there is a document of the

Page 13409

1 Ministry of Internal Affairs dated the 28th of September, 1992, signed and

2 stamped. Can you first of all comment on the header and the stamp and the

3 signature?

4 A. This is a document which corresponds to the contents, but the

5 signature is not that of Martic. Somebody signed for him, probably

6 someone from the command of the special police units.

7 Q. And the stamp, is it the stamp that was used at that time?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. In this document, there is a reference made to -- I quote: "We

10 have the --" I can't read that word. Sorry. Mine was not readable. "We

11 have the surely information that during the 29/30-1992 by force

12 immigration of the population is planned for Skabrnja, Novigrad, and

13 Pridraga." And a little bit further down: "... we inform you that we

14 will be forced to prevent by force arrival of -- on the territory of

15 RSK."

16 Do you know that anything happened at that time, in September

17 1992, in relation to the return of the population?

18 A. I know that people talked about it and that it was the position by

19 the people in the government that the Croats should not be allowed to

20 return. I don't know exactly, in any precise terms.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's enough for the document.

23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, who interpreted, translated this

24 document? I'm interested in the form of the document. Was it faxed?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It is actually a UN -- we received this

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Page 13411

1 document from the UN.

2 JUDGE KWON: UNPROFOR.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: UNPROFOR. And I'm actually -- I'm not sure

4 who translated it. I assume they, not us.

5 JUDGE KWON: And if you could tell us what the previous documents,

6 the handwritten documents, are which were put before this document under

7 the same tab number.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is just a memo from

9 UNPROFOR related to the situation at that time, and attached was this

10 statement from Martic, Martic's ministry. The other questions I can't

11 actually answer. It is a letter written to UNPROFOR and the State

12 Committee for Cooperation.

13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I think it says that.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, we have -- you have already mentioned Dubrovnik and the

16 fighting in Dubrovnik and what the goal was in relation to this region.

17 Did the Bosnian Serbs have a particular goal for the region around

18 Dubrovnik? Did you ever have a conversation related to this?

19 A. Yes, they did. It was their target that the Republika Srpska

20 should come out onto the sea to the south of Dubrovnik, in that area.

21 Q. How do you know that? Did you have conversation of that kind or

22 did you hear them quote such things?

23 A. I heard this from Biljana Plavsic, that Republika Srpska should be

24 given an outlet to the sea at the rocks of Konavle.

25 Q. When did she say that? Did she say that publicly and when?

Page 13412

1 A. Yes, she said that publicly in 1994 or 1995. I'm not quite sure

2 now.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, I -- when we spoke about the

4 intercepts in relation to the Martic arrest, there was actually one

5 intercept that I did not put to the witness, and I would like to do that

6 just now, and it is -- it's tab 37 of the intercept binder 353.

7 Q. Witness, did you listen to an intercepted conversation between

8 Radovan Karadzic and Momcilo Krajisnik? Do you recall that?

9 A. I do recall it, yes.

10 Q. How familiar are you with Mr. Krajisnik's voice?

11 A. I know the voice well. I heard him on several occasions. He uses

12 the Sarajevo dialect with his own personal type of intonation.

13 Q. Yes. I do not like to go into any details. It's not necessity

14 point in time. Thank you.

15 Witness, we have seen from several documents that you had actually

16 put -- discussed and explained to us that civilian and military courts

17 were established in the SAO Krajina and the RSK, and we also have seen the

18 request of the RSK to the VJ to transfer staff for military courts. Does

19 that mean that civil and military courts did function in the years 1991 to

20 1995 in the Krajina?

21 A. Yes, they did.

22 Q. Are you aware whether any war crimes committed against the

23 non-Serbs, the non-Serbs in the region, were investigated by the judiciary

24 and led to a result such as a conviction?

25 A. No, except for one group from Drvenik for a crime in Rupe or

Page 13413

1 thereabouts. In 1993, I think it was.

2 Q. What kind of group -- what kind of group was it? Who was

3 convicted of what?

4 A. A group belonging to the army of the Srpska Krajina from Drvenik

5 where it had killed some civilians. This was around the village of Rupe

6 or around that area, and they were arrested and taken to trial. I don't

7 know what the outcome of the trial was.

8 Q. The victims of these crimes, what ethnicity did they have?

9 A. They were Croats.

10 Q. You have already described the looting that took place after

11 attacks on --

12 A. I beg your pardon. I do apologise. Or one of them was perhaps

13 killed at Rupe, and they killed some Croats from their own village.

14 Perhaps that was it. Perhaps that was what happened.

15 Q. Witness, you have already described the looting that took place

16 after attacks on Croatian villages, and I would like to ask you a question

17 now in private session.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

19 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15 Q. Witness, you have already described the two detention facilities

16 in Knin, and I just need a few more details on this. Were Croats detained

17 in a part of the old Knin hospital?

18 A. Yes, they were.

19 Q. This old Knin hospital, where was it situated in Knin in relation

20 to the government buildings and the JNA barracks?

21 A. Between the headquarters of the 9th Corps and the government

22 building.

23 Q. Does that mean they were close?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who ran the detention facility, and in which time period did it

Page 13415

1 function as a detention facility?

2 A. The police were at the head, and it functioned as a prison for a

3 long time. I don't know when it started being used in that way, but

4 sometime in the middle of the summer of 1991 until the end of 1992. And

5 later on, when the prison was taken over by the Ministry of Justice and

6 when Ilija Tauz came and brought in professional prison guards, it was

7 moved to the other wing of the old hospital, and that's where the prison

8 was later on.

9 Q. How many -- what kind of people were kept there; civilians,

10 combatants, men, women? Can you tell us?

11 A. Members of the Croatian police force and army who had been taken

12 prisoner. And later on, I heard that there were some civilians too,

13 Croats.

14 Q. And how many Croats were detained there at a given time? What was

15 the capacity?

16 A. I don't know exactly what the capacity was. Well, tens, dozens.

17 Q. Do you know how long the detainees were kept there? I mean, over

18 which time period were they kept there?

19 A. I don't know exactly, but it was in 1991 at any rate. The autumn

20 of 1991.

21 Q. I mean the individual detainees, how were they kept there, the

22 time period; just for a few days or months? The individual detainees, how

23 long would they be detained there?

24 A. Well, I can't say exactly. There were some exchanges that took

25 place. Some of them were exchanged and, therefore, released.

Page 13416

1 Q. You said that detainees -- it was known that detainees were

2 mistreated there. Who mistreated them and in which way?

3 A. The guards who were policemen. I heard later on that they even

4 brought in citizens from the streets to mistreat them.

5 Q. And when you say "citizens from the streets," which ethnicity had

6 the victims?

7 A. Croats.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Closed session, please.

9 [Private session]

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you repeat the final comment in open

21 session.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Which one?

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Which one do you mean? Oh, you mean that we

25 are finished with our questions. Yes. The Prosecution has now finished

Page 13420

1 its questions that we're to put to the witness, and faster as expected.

2 JUDGE MAY: That would be a convenient time. We'll go to

3 cross-examination, Mr. Milosevic, after the break. Twenty minutes.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, before you begin, there's one

7 procedural matter which we must deal with in private session.

8 We'll go into private session.

9 [Private session]

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Page 13421

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, would you, of course, bear in mind that

3 any matters, as you know now, which may disclose the identity of this

4 witness must be dealt with in private session, and you should err on the

5 side of caution in that respect. Yes.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I have been given the

8 testimony of this witness on tapes, and I would like at the beginning to

9 play one of those many videotapes, the first one. The first one will

10 suffice.

11 JUDGE MAY: Just let us see what -- let us just see what this is.

12 This is tapes of his interview, is that it?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. A part of the first tape of

14 his conversations with the lady opposite and with the investigator, upon

15 which I could put some questions to the witness and ask him to comment.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If the track has been identified. It will have

17 to be in private session, as the registrar points out, because of the

18 facial distortion.

19 [Private session]

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4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back into open session.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, to assist you in preparation of your

6 cross-examination, we've decided you can have up to 20 hours

7 cross-examination. We don't encourage you to take that long, but you can

8 if you want. You've had an hour and a half, of course, this morning,

9 playing that tape. We will today sit until 2.00, so you have until then

10 to continue your cross-examination. And would you remember, please, both

11 the accused and the witness, to leave a pause between question and answer,

12 for the interpreters. Yes.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, it is my impression that

14 the time that you are giving me is somewhat shorter than the

15 examination-in-chief took, and as you're indicating the need for making

16 pauses between question and answer, and other forms in which time is

17 wasted, I don't think that you ought to abridge the time.

18 JUDGE MAY: The time is not abridged. But go on. Let us make a

19 start. We've a lot to cover.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

21 Q. Now, I have played some tapes here, just half, actually, of a

22 large number of tapes that we have from your interviews, Mr. Croatia 61.

23 I could have taken any other tape, but I selected the first tape.

24 Now, did it remind you -- we saw the tape played and we saw on the

25 tape that the lady opposite said to you that what you were saying was in

Page 13453

1 complete contrast with what they had, and you were able to see that; isn't

2 that right?

3 A. I don't understand your question.

4 Q. I was saying -- let me remind you. Did you see that a moment ago

5 that even the lady who interviewed you and held the examination-in-chief

6 said that what you were saying was in complete contrast with what they

7 had? I hope you were able to see that.

8 A. Would you please be more specific.

9 Q. Well, for me to be more specific, I would have to go back into a

10 closed session, and I don't wish to do that. So I'm asking you in open

11 session: Did you remember what you saw a moment ago?

12 A. During the interview, I told the truth to the best of my

13 recollections.

14 Q. All right. Did you notice that the interviewers, the investigator

15 himself - and this was at the very end of this excerpt from the tape that

16 I played to you - that he presented his impressions that this was in

17 contradiction with what they had, the material they had, and that he had

18 the impression that you were distorting your answers, that they were

19 distorted, slanting your answers?

20 A. If I can remember, the investigator reminded me that I should

21 speak about the facts that I had seen and heard, and not talk about my

22 feelings and sentiments in my heart and in my mind.

23 Q. All right. Tell me, then, please, this: In view of the fact that

24 the person who was putting the questions to you, and the investigator, was

25 cautioning you about the contrasts that you -- and what you were saying,

Page 13454

1 as opposed to what they had, the material they had, how come that you

2 agreed in the examination-in-chief with everything they said over the past

3 five and a half days?

4 JUDGE MAY: That's not a matter for the witness to answer. He

5 gave his answers. It will be for us to judge the way in which he gave

6 them.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 Q. You say that you had made attempts to secure a peaceful and

9 harmonious life for the population of the Krajina with the other

10 inhabitants of Croatia, within the framework of the Republic of Croatia.

11 Is that correct? Is that what you endeavoured to achieve? That's what

12 you say. Isn't it so?

13 A. I am saying that in 1990, the political option in favour of the

14 SAO Krajina was one thing; in 1991, it was something else; and in 1995,

15 again it resembled the option of 1991 [as interpreted].

16 Q. Tell me --

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises: 1990.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. We have seen on this tape, and I think at the

20 examination-in-chief, that in the beginning -- and as we have seen when

21 they are putting questions to you - they keep repeating this, and it's in

22 the transcript - that is, that you, as of 1990, attempted to secure a

23 harmonious life within the framework of the Republic of Croatia; is that

24 correct?

25 A. In 1990, we wanted the community of municipalities, that is, the

Page 13455

1 SAO Krajina, to achieve political and territorial autonomy within Croatia,

2 and depending on the position of Croatia within Yugoslavia. If it was in

3 a federation, the content of this territorial autonomy would be on a lower

4 level, it would resemble a cultural autonomy; and if Croatia became a

5 confederal republic within Yugoslavia, then the level of autonomy would be

6 higher. That was -- those were the options in 1990.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Milosevic.

8 JUDGE MAY: Microphone. Microphone.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. But we all heard you explaining that from the very beginning, from

11 1990 onwards, you endeavoured to solve the question or the issue of a

12 harmonious life within the Republic of Croatia. And as far as I was able

13 to see and hear on the tape, your explanations were that what was in your

14 heart and in your mind - you even gestured and pointed to your heart and

15 your head - that this was not what was on your lips, this was not what you

16 were saying. Is that correct?

17 A. In 1990 -- I explained in great detail how it came about that the

18 SAO Krajina opted for Yugoslavia in 1991. In 1991, I agreed with your

19 conception that the SAO Krajina and the Serbs had the right to remain

20 within Yugoslavia.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, in order to avoid

22 identifying the witness, I will not be more specific here, but I can refer

23 to an article in Politika.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Can you explain how it came about that this article was

Page 13456

1 published? You marked it with number 63. It follows that your statement

2 was not actually yours, that somebody else had made it and that it was

3 published as yours. Is this your explanation?

4 A. What article are you referring to specifically?

5 Q. The document you marked number 63.

6 A. May I see the document?

7 JUDGE MAY: Now, 63, Mr. Milosevic, is a decree to do with

8 insignia. Is that what you had in mind?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was referring to what the witness

10 said when interviewed by the investigator and a representative of the

11 other side --

12 JUDGE MAY: I think that's --

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what he himself mentioned as 63.

14 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. No, I don't think it is 63. I think

15 it's 79. Let the witness see 79. Don't put it on the ELMO.

16 Yes. Now the witness has it. What was the question,

17 Mr. Milosevic?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't understand how -- what he

19 meant when he said someone else would have signed it, he had not signed

20 it. I don't understand his explanation.

21 JUDGE MAY: I think we better go into private session to deal with

22 this.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Very well. Can we agree --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. May, that we should at

13 least make an effort to work in open session as much as we can.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Can we agree that it follows from what you are saying that you

16 enjoyed your political role? You say that you knew that you could survive

17 politically only if you said what your surroundings expected of you. Is

18 that right?

19 A. I liked my political role, in a sense, and I had to respect public

20 opinion in my political actions.

21 Q. So you were working because of the attraction of the political

22 role, and you were doing things that you did not agree with because of the

23 attraction of your political role; is that what you are saying?

24 A. No. Occasionally those were the motives, yes.

25 Q. Yes or no.

Page 13470

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Page 13471

1 A. Generally, no, but there was such a motive too, in certain periods

2 of time and for certain reasons.

3 Q. Does that mean that you played your political part only because of

4 the power that it implied? For what other motive, if you were doing

5 things you did not agree with?

6 A. No. I played my political role because I believed that it could

7 contribute to a better future for the people, for the public good.

8 Q. Was that for the public good, for the benefit of the public, for

9 you to speak contrary to your convictions, which you are now presenting to

10 us here?

11 A. I didn't speak or act in contradiction with my convictions but in

12 line with political pragmatism as to how those convictions could be turned

13 into reality, in what way.

14 Q. But as far as I was able to see, in your explanation you mention

15 that you may have got some things confused, you may have forgotten

16 things. But anyway, on the last tape you even apologise because of such a

17 possibility, don't you?

18 A. In the interviews conducted with me, I said that I said what I

19 could remember but that I had more to say, and at the end of that

20 interview was my statement that I had things to add, things I hadn't said.

21 Q. Very well, then. Tell me, what was the motive of your

22 endeavours? Was it political pragmatism, as you put it, to create the

23 image among the citizens of Krajina that you were coordinating your views

24 with the leadership of Serbia when it comes it your decisions and

25 positions?

Page 13472

1 A. Those were not my words.

2 Q. Well, let us assume that -- the fact that I sought to explain to

3 the citizens of Krajina that that was not true. That must have had some

4 reason, or maybe it had no reason or no motive.

5 A. You sought to cheat, to trick the peoples of Krajina, to play

6 around with their destiny.

7 Q. I wanted to play with the citizens of Krajina why?

8 A. To achieve your plans. And in 1991 they were maximalistic, and

9 later on you revised them. And for the revision of your political plans,

10 you manipulated with public opinion and the people, and the people of

11 Krajina as well.

12 Q. Perhaps that may be a projection of precisely what you were doing

13 with public opinion in Krajina all this time, especially when it is placed

14 in the context of your current explanations of your intentions, as long

15 ago as 1990, to resolve all problems within the framework of the Republic

16 of Croatia. Is that so or not?

17 A. In 1991, we accepted your concept for the solution to the crisis

18 on the territory of the former Yugoslavia, which was the right of all

19 Serbs to remain in one state.

20 Q. Mr. C-061, we'll come to that later on in due course, but as you

21 mention this, I assume that you know that with the existence of Yugoslavia

22 since 1918, in fact, and that Yugoslavia expressed the interests of all

23 the South Slav peoples, that the Serbs did in fact live in a single

24 state. Not in 1991 or 1992 but since 1918. That is to say since the end

25 of World War I. Is that something you are aware of?

Page 13473

1 A. Could you ask the question again, please?

2 Q. Do you know that all the Serbs lived in the one state since the

3 end of the First World War in 1918?

4 A. I am aware of the historical facts and that in 1918 a state was

5 set up of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes in such a way that Serbia and

6 Montenegro united and the provisional state of the Slovenes, Croats, and

7 Serbs, which was later on proclaimed to be the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. In

8 1939, within the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the Banovina of Croatia was

9 established, and through the decisions of the National Liberation

10 Movement, the Communist Party, in 1945 the federation was set up of the

11 Yugoslav republics.

12 Q. Do you remember that even in the declaration which you drew up, or

13 whatever the document was called, on unification of Republika Srpska and

14 Republika Srpska Krajina, that it was precisely in that document that you

15 describe the historical course of life in common in a single state, which

16 dates back to 1918 and not 1990 or 1991? Aren't these historical facts

17 that cannot be refuted?

18 A. The concept that you advocated and that we accepted in 1990 and

19 1991 during the disintegration of Yugoslavia was the concept according to

20 which the peoples of Yugoslavia had the right to self-determination up

21 until the point of secession, and you prepared a law along those lines.

22 Q. Sir, you are referring to --

23 MR. MUELLER: I'm sorry.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I do apologise. I did

25 not do that intentionally.

Page 13474

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Go on.

2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mueller is on his feet.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Mueller.

4 MR. MUELLER: Your Honours, would you mind me asking for a short

5 break now to have a word with my client?

6 JUDGE MAY: We're just about to break anyway. Let me just see

7 what the question was. Is there a matter -- we'll go into private session

8 if we're not in private session.

9 MR. MUELLER: We are not.

10 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I just ask one thing of the Chamber as

14 well? It will be of great assistance to us if the accused is able to

15 indicate to the Chamber how much of the remaining --

16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

17 MR. NICE: -- 17 1/2 hours of indicated cross-examination time

18 he's likely to use. That time would take us to the end of the three days

19 sitting, roughly, of next week, when there's another five-day break. If

20 he's going to be substantially less than that amount of time, we'd have to

21 get a witness in for next week. If he's likely to want and to use all of

22 that amount of time, then it will not be necessary to get a witness until

23 five days later, for the following week. I suspect there's going to be a

24 change of witness ordering in any event because of the time that's been

25 used, but if the accused - and I recognise it's not an easy exercise - if

Page 13485

1 he could indicate to you, by tomorrow, whether he's likely to use the full

2 time allowed, that would help us in our planning.

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you've heard the request. Perhaps

4 you'd like to think about it.

5 Let me say to the --

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have already stated my views,

7 Mr. May. It is my impression -- and I asked you to reassess the time that

8 I will have. Of course I intend to use up all the time that you allot me.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We won't go into the matter any further.

10 The Prosecution will have heard that.

11 I say this to the public: that of course this witness is

12 protected, and nothing is to be reported which indicates his identity.

13 We'll adjourn now. 9.00 tomorrow morning.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of

16 November, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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